Last Night, the Monster Came Out

[Steve]

After a short lecture about control and contact level, a new guy lifted me up and almost tossed me (sloppily) out of the ring during a striking/clinch drill. I told him about contact again and he nodded dismissively.

So he did it again and I let him know what was on my mind.

We switched positions (where I was defending) and he took me down into the corner, which wasn't part of the drill.

The "monster" came out. Calm, controlled, focused on positioning my legs higher up on his back, while my forearms worked for the guillotine.

It's nice to know that kind of aggression is there... and even better to know that I could control it in a constructive manner.

Is THIS the "monster"? If so, it's not what I took from Bill's OP.

I had a white belt not too long ago who was spazzing out completely. After taking an accidental knee to my nose, him opening my guard by trying to drive his forearm into my neck and assorted other rude things, I got tired of trying to get him to work on, you know... passing guard. After about the third time I said, "Dude. You're not going to submit me from within my guard," I swept him, moved to knee on belly, rode that for a little while, then moved to mount and finished with an ezekial.

I wouldn't call that the "monster" though, because, while I was irritated, I wasn't out of control. I knew exactly what I was doing, as well as how uncomfortable knee on belly can be... not to mention how much the ezekial can hurt. After he tapped, I shook his hand, bumped fists, said, 'Good Job,' and then pulled guard again so he could work on passing. He didn't try to choke me from within my guard after that.

I am not picking on Bill. I hope that's clear. I'm just not sure I am clear on what people are referring to as "the monster". I think it's what we commonly referring to in BJJ as spazzing out... usually done by white belts, but I'm wondering if I have it wrong. and usually what happens is similar to the story I described (and what Nolerama wrote, too). And ultimately, the guy who is out of control either figures it out or stops coming.

Aggression is one thing, but lack of control just sounds dangerous and undisciplined to me. Personally, I wouldn't want to train with someone who experiences lapses of control on an even occasional basis.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Is THIS the "monster"? If so, it's not what I took from Bill's OP.

I had a white belt not too long ago who was spazzing out completely.

I hope I did not give the impression that I 'spazzed out' while sparring. And I also hope I didn't spaz out. Of course, I could not see myself as others saw me, I could only replay events in my mind. In my recollection, I was at one point throwing some bad technique (throwing right jabs whilst leading with my left; should have been throwing left jabs and right crosses), but I corrected that. I was actually pleased that I seemed to be blocking effectively - or - if I was simply not blocking at all and taking the hits - I certainly did not feel it - which makes me think I blocked.

I've seen people fight badly, throwing haymakers and swinging wildly and all the while imagining they are doing well and following their training. If I looked like that - well, I hope someone tells me.

I wouldn't call that the "monster" though, because, while I was irritated, I wasn't out of control. I knew exactly what I was doing, as well as how uncomfortable knee on belly can be... not to mention how much the ezekial can hurt. After he tapped, I shook his hand, bumped fists, said, 'Good Job,' and then pulled guard again so he could work on passing. He didn't try to choke me from within my guard after that.

What I was trying to refer to as 'the monster' inside of myself was a disassociative state. I was mentally present, aware of what was going on, but at the same time, I did not feel as if it were 'me' directing my blocks, kicks, and punches. It seemed as if someone else were doing it for me - the 'monster'. I was not irritated, and I was calm.

In my original post, I described earlier experiences in my life as berserker rages, and compared this to those; I believe I stated that they were not alike, primarily because I did not feel rage and I was able to distinguish friend from foe (or sparring partner).

I am not picking on Bill. I hope that's clear. I'm just not sure I am clear on what people are referring to as "the monster". I think it's what we commonly referring to in BJJ as spazzing out... usually done by white belts, but I'm wondering if I have it wrong. and usually what happens is similar to the story I described (and what Nolerama wrote, too). And ultimately, the guy who is out of control either figures it out or stops coming.

I don't feel picked on, but again, I don't think I 'spazzed out' and I hope that I didn't. If I did, I hope someone who witnessed it will tell me.

Aggression is one thing, but lack of control just sounds dangerous and undisciplined to me. Personally, I wouldn't want to train with someone who experiences lapses of control on an even occasional basis.

As I think I mentioned, in my case, I had not felt this particular feeling in over 25 years. Not sure how if that is something you'd consider too frequent. And as I said, I did not think of myself as 'out of control' but rather as supremely in control - just with someone else driving the car. My body was doing what it was supposed to be doing (with minor flubs as described above), but it was all happening too fast for what I would normally consider myself capable of keeping up with.

 

[Steve]

Bill, thanks for the reply. I guess it would help me if you could tell me what your technique looked like. I think I'm beginning to get the picture, and it's not quite what I had originally thought. As I read your story, I (like everyone) was applying my own personal experiences as a filter.

Spazzing isn't necessarily derogatory. In fact, it's something we kind of expect from new guys. But that's a pretty common term for it.

As for the rest, I guess what I'm wondering is, how was your technique? While you've said you were jabbing from the wrong side, from your description it sounds more like Western boxing with knees than karate. I would say that, if your technique was solid and the amount of contact appropriate for the intensity of the sparring, then you didn't 'spaz' but really, only you and your training partners will know that.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, thanks for the reply. I guess it would help me if you could tell me what your technique looked like. I think I'm beginning to get the picture, and it's not quite what I had originally thought. As I read your story, I (like everyone) was applying my own personal experiences as a filter.

My style is Isshinryu, but that's not really how we spar. That is, we don't do kata or basic forms like 'middle body block and reverse punch' (chudan uke seiken tsuki) and so on. We take a ready (kamai) stance and it looks a lot like boxing with kicks (front snap kicks, roundhouse, and back kicks). We throw western-style punches as well as backfists.

We tend to carry the hands lower than a boxer's stance because we only wear hand, foot, and shin protection. Only a few guys opt to wear headgear, and we're supposed to avoid aiming for the head during sparring.

Spazzing isn't necessarily derogatory. In fact, it's something we kind of expect from new guys. But that's a pretty common term for it.

To me, 'spazzing out' has always meant wild, flailing, out-of-control behavior.

As for the rest, I guess what I'm wondering is, how was your technique? While you've said you were jabbing from the wrong side, from your description it sounds more like Western boxing with knees than karate.

Correct. We didn't throw any knees, though. Front snap kicks and a few roundhouse kicks.

I would say that, if your technique was solid and the amount of contact appropriate for the intensity of the sparring, then you didn't 'spaz' but really, only you and your training partners will know that.

I think I made a conscious decision early on to get inside and keep my distance close, because my sparring partner is an experienced blackbelt and he's fast and lighter than I am - so I figured my best position would be right up in his grill as much as I could manage it. I was surprised to find that I was able to get there and stay there, and he was throwing punches fast and furious - that's about the time I seemed to begin reacting with speed I typically do not have.

I don't know how my technique was, but as I mentioned, I *think* I blocked most of his punches, or at least I don't remember them landing. I knew I had blocked some of them, but others just went by too fast for me to notice. Later in the match, he did land one right upside my noggin that made my head ring, so that's why I had the impression that I had previously been blocking effectively - some how.

What I did that surprised me was to back him up to the wall, and then into a corner, and begin hammering in uppercuts to his midsection. I know I was hitting him hard, and probably much harder than I should have during sparring - and if I was doing so, that was wrong of me. I know he tried to spin out on me and I basically used my weight advantage to toss him back into the corner again. This was happening without me consciously doing it, though. My thoughts were 'win the match' not 'now pick him up and toss him back into the corner and then go back to work on his midsection'.

When he did manage to get out of the corner (I think I reacted to shouts from my dojo-mates to back up and get out of the corner), he spun away and tossed a spinning back-fist at my head, hard and fast. That was one punch I saw coming and brush-blocked like it was nothing. And believe me, that's not something I can typically do. I brushed it past with my left and then flicked it back out and backfisted him instead, followed by a punch to the head (which was definitely something I was not supposed to do, but it just happened automatically). I apologized to him after the match for that shot, and he said to forget it. I wanted him to know I really was sorry, but he said, look it's over, I'm fine, forget it.

And as I said, this euphoria I felt concerning speed and ability that seemed to come from nowhere could well have been my sparring partner humoring me as well as being tired, since he had been sparring three previous matches. He could have just decided to let me 'have one' to feel good about myself, I don't know. But it sure seemed as if I were in control and tossing the aces, you know what I mean? If I wasn't, then I wasn't, but it sure fooled me.

 

[Sukerkin]

That sounds like part way to mushin to me, Bill. Not entirely there yet but certainly the beginning of it. 'No mind' doesn't mean 'no sense' (unless circumstances warrant it) but it is at least a little as you describe i.e. emotionless and effective technique.

 

[Rich Parsons]

That sounds like part way to mushin to me, Bill. Not entirely there yet but certainly the beginning of it. 'No mind' doesn't mean 'no sense' (unless circumstances warrant it) but it is at least a little as you describe i.e. emotionless and effective technique.

No Mind or the state of being without being. The knowing without knowing, the reaction because you processed it at a lower level on your brain then at a higher level. When it becomes instinct instead of planned or thought.

It is hard to describe.

 

[Tez3]

I suspect Americans view the word differently but here 'spazzin' is from the word spastic meaning a disabled person and is offensive.

 

[Steve]

I suspect Americans view the word differently but here 'spazzin' is from the word spastic meaning a disabled person and is offensive.

I'm not surprised. Language is an interesting thing.

Regardless of what you might call it, I'm sure that you, Tez, have personally experienced what I'm talking about, where a newish white belt completely forgets himself and spars without any control over himself. Even if I might call that person a spaz and you wouldn't.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I suspect Americans view the word differently but here 'spazzin' is from the word spastic meaning a disabled person and is offensive.

Over here, the word 'tw@t' is incredibly offensive, the 'c' word is even worse. My friends from the UK call each other that all the time. And to 'pat someone on the fanny' is not really a bad thing here amongst jocks. I am told it's a shade different in the UK. I'm told that 'shagging a few flies' is not really something one does in the UK, but in the USA, it means to hit a baseball with a baseball bat as practice for others to catch the ball. And I was a bit shocked when my friend told me he'd come by in the morning and 'knock me up.' I wasn't aware I could be 'knocked up'.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

...where a newish white belt completely forgets himself and spars without any control over himself.

Just FYI - I am not a white belt, but an orange belt. I've been practicing Isshinryu for over a year now. I'm far, far, from an expert, but I'm also well past the basics - I hope. You may be aware of that, but I was unsure.

 

[Steve]

Just FYI - I am not a white belt, but an orange belt. I've been practicing Isshinryu for over a year now. I'm far, far, from an expert, but I'm also well past the basics - I hope. You may be aware of that, but I was unsure.

Bill, I didn't mean to imply otherwise and I'm sorry if I came off as derisive. I was simply trying to explain my use of the term "spaz" to Tez.

As a bit of an aside, from your posts, I knew you were newer to MA training and did have the impression that you were a bit on the newer side but didn't realize that you've been training for less than a couple of years. In BJJ, you'd likely still be a white belt. While some people are promoted to blue belt in about a year, it takes most people 1 1/2 to 2 years. That said, at over a year, you'd be on the more experienced side of white belt and well past the "spaz" stage!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, I didn't mean to imply otherwise and I'm sorry if I came off as derisive. I was simply trying to explain my use of the term "spaz" to Tez.

No need to apologize, I took no offense. Just sayin' that I'm not exactly right off the street anymore...

As a bit of an aside, from your posts, I knew you were newer to MA training and did have the impression that you were a bit on the newer side but didn't realize that you've been training for less than a couple of years. In BJJ, you'd likely still be a white belt.

Fortunately, my dojo is not a 'McDojo' and promotions tend to come slowly. I earned orange belt about 8 months ago, and I'm probably close to green belt, although it is up to sensei to say - I keep my mouth shut and keep working. I have Sanchin, Seisan, Seuichin, and I'm working on Nihanchi kata now. Once I have that and Wansu, technically I could even be considered for blue belt, but that's just on paper - sensei decides when people are due to be promoted. Average time to black belt in our dojo is about nine years. In fact, he's only made about 10 black belts in 25+ years of teaching. Most of them still attend.

So when I say I am an 'orange belt', I'm new, but not exactly like yesterday new. And don't forget, I was in law enforcement for over a decade. If I had a tendency to spaz out, it probably would have poked its head up by now, I hope.

While some people are promoted to blue belt in about a year, it takes most people 1 1/2 to 2 years. That said, at over a year, you'd be on the more experienced side of white belt and well past the "spaz" stage!

I hope so. Believe me when I said I took your words to heart. The last thing I want to be is overconfident of abilities I don't truly possess, or alternatively, known as a psycho who can't be trusted to spar with.