Kwans envolvment in KKW Self Defense

[miguksaram]

I believe the Judo school opened in 1939 & that the Jidkwan 1st trained there after the occupation ended. So did they start calling it yudo that early on?

They could have called it 'Choking You the F' Out', it is still the same art regardless. My point was that the JDK had that back ground in it which may have been a factor on which kwan was involved in SD curriculum.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Kind of a funny thread, I know what you are getting at but isn't striking and blocking with the foot and hand both self defense and offense.

If it is being trained in a way so as to address self defense realistically, yes, it is.

That is not to say that 'sport' striking and blocking is useless in self defense; strikes and blocks are strikes and blocks. Plenty of people have defended themselves with boxing over the years, which is also sport.

The only real issue comes in how it is presented. If a school teaches striking in a competition setting, then they are teaching striking as it applies to competition, not to deal specifically with the sort of situations that can arise outside of the ring, and should be up front about that.

If a school teaches striking as it applies to realistic self defense scenarios, then they should likewise, say so. Even though it usually (though not always) comes across as a bit obnoxious, when a school makes a big deal out of not being sport, they're doing a service to all; those looking to become successful in competition will know right off the bat not to waist their time at that school.

Unfortunately, the SD only schools will proclaim that they don't do sport as loudly as they can from the highest rooftop, while sport only schools generally don't make similar proclamations about being 'sport only', as subconsciously, people still expect a martial art to teach self defense on some level, regardless of whether it is a reasonable expectation.

Daniel

 

[leadleg]

If it is being trained in a way so as to address self defense realistically, yes, it is.

That is not to say that 'sport' striking and blocking is useless in self defense; strikes and blocks are strikes and blocks. Plenty of people have defended themselves with boxing over the years, which is also sport.

The only real issue comes in how it is presented. If a school teaches striking in a competition setting, then they are teaching striking as it applies to competition, not to deal specifically with the sort of situations that can arise outside of the ring, and should be up front about that.

If a school teaches striking as it applies to realistic self defense scenarios, then they should likewise, say so. Even though it usually (though not always) comes across as a bit obnoxious, when a school makes a big deal out of not being sport, they're doing a service to all; those looking to become successful in competition will know right off the bat not to waist their time at that school.

Unfortunately, the SD only schools will proclaim that they don't do sport as loudly as they can from the highest rooftop, while sport only schools generally don't make similar proclamations about being 'sport only', as subconsciously, people still expect a martial art to teach self defense on some level, regardless of whether it is a reasonable expectation.

Daniel

Well the op was speaking of original kwans, I was only suggesting that they felt their respective arts/styles were s/d.
I get what he was refering to, it just struck me as kinda funny.

 

[puunui]

I believe the Judo school opened in 1939 & that the Jidkwan 1st trained there after the occupation ended. So did they start calling it yudo that early on?

The Chosun Yun Moo Kwan opened in 1931. It was the third Judo school to open, the first being a program at the YMCA which was started in 1909. The second was the Kang Moon Kwan which opened in 1923.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well the op was speaking of original kwans, I was only suggesting that they felt their respective arts/styles were s/d.
I get what he was refering to, it just struck me as kinda funny.

Well the original kwans were essentially doing karate for the most part, at least initially, so the bulk of self defense would have initally been what was in vogue in the karate of the day.

For the most part, I think that the Kukkiwon leaves specific self defense to the individual schools, as the textbook is relatively sparse with regrards to it. What is presented is essentially strikes, blocks and counters along with applications for the pumse. The applications don't really go much beyond what is presented in the pumse; they mainly show the opponent that the taekwondoin is fighting and what attack the taekwondoin is reacting to in the pumse. There really isn't much in the way of hidden joint locks, sweeps or takedowns, which is what many people associate with self defense. Striking is, however, part of self defense too.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

In terms of self defense, I would think Jidokwan would have a bit of an advantadge over the other kwans. Wasn't their first school taught out of a Yudo gym and some of the original members were Yudo players as well?

I don't know how much Judo made it into the Jidokwan's official syllabus, but I did trian under a gentleman with JDK roots who besides being highly ranked in TKD had a high dan rank in Judo, too. Maybe it was more a matter of being open to cross training than formal adoption of a particular method (and maybe Judo was just favored because he was originally JDK, don't know).

Pax,

Chris

 

[miguksaram]

I don't know how much Judo made it into the Jidokwan's official syllabus, but I did trian under a gentleman with JDK roots who besides being highly ranked in TKD had a high dan rank in Judo, too. Maybe it was more a matter of being open to cross training than formal adoption of a particular method (and maybe Judo was just favored because he was originally JDK, don't know).

Pax,

Chris

No..no...not saying Yudo was part of the JDK curriculum (I do not know if it was or was not). I am just saying that since they had experience in that art that they may have had bigger influence on what went into the SD curriculum for the KKW. Just a thought I had with no proof either way.

 

[puunui]

I would say that it was a judo school, not Yudo. Yudo is a Korean term that they used for Judo, but I think that during the Japanese occupation it would have been the Japanese term Judo, which was 1 of the few martial arts allowed, archery & kendo were 2 others

The Korean people still spoke korean during the Japanese occupation. So it would have been pronounced "Yudo" prior to the end of WWII. Also, according to Dr. Kimm, Ssirim was active during the occupation as well. Interestingly, Dr. Kimm does not mention the Archery school in Kaesong that Song Moo Kwan GM RO Byung Jick allegedly taught at in March 1944, at least not in the Koongdo section in his Taekwondo book. From an oppression standpoint, I would think that one of the first things that the Japanese Governor General would do would be to outlaw archery, for anti assassination purposes. It would be much easier for someone to kill Japanese officials in Korea with a bow and arrow than with Karate.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

From an oppression standpoint, I would think that one of the first things that the Japanese Governor General would do would be to outlaw archery, for anti assassination purposes. It would be much easier for someone to kill Japanese officials in Korea with a bow and arrow than with Karate.

Aint that the truth!

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by puunui
From an oppression standpoint, I would think that one of the first things that the Japanese Governor General would do would be to outlaw archery, for anti assassination purposes. It would be much easier for someone to kill Japanese officials in Korea with a bow and arrow than with Karate.

Aint that the truth!
Daniel

I think you gentleman misunderstand something here. Koreans have long been very good at sport archery. This was why it was allowed.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The Korean people still spoke korean during the Japanese occupation.

Yes of course Korean spoke Korean, but it was eventually against the law for schools to even teach it. Koreans were also made to take Japanese names.

 

[puunui]

Yes of course Korean spoke Korean, but it was eventually against the law for schools to even teach it. Koreans were also made to take Japanese names.

Eventually against the law for schools to teach Korean. And yet they still spoke Korean, so Judo was still pronounced Yudo during the occupation.

And not all Koreans were made to take Japanese names. Only 10% actually did, most of whom were students or others traveling to work or live in Japan. But even if everyone in Korea were made to take Japanese names, they still spoke Korean, so Judo was still pronounced Yudo during the occupation.

 

[miguksaram]

Eventually against the law for schools to teach Korean. And yet they still spoke Korean, so Judo was still pronounced Yudo during the occupation.

And not all Koreans were made to take Japanese names. Only 10% actually did, most of whom were students or others traveling to work or live in Japan. But even if everyone in Korea were made to take Japanese names, they still spoke Korean, so Judo was still pronounced Yudo during the occupation.

I asked my wife about this last night and she pretty much confirmed what you said..Those taken Japanese names were students who went to Japan, workers in Japan and anyone doing business with or working for Japanese government. The "educated" people were the ones that were learning and speaking Japanese and even then mostly in public...in the homes it was still Korean. Most of the rural area people did not have access to a lot of schools and so were never taught Japanese. They spoke Korean.

Another side note, is that while Japan did occupy Korea, not ever city and village had Japanese people in them. My wife's family are farmers living in small village about 45 minutes outside of Cheonju. They were not really affected by the Japanese occupation as much as someone in Seoul would have been.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Eventually against the law for schools to teach Korean. And yet they still spoke Korean, so Judo was still pronounced Yudo during the occupation.

And not all Koreans were made to take Japanese names. Only 10% actually did, most of whom were students or others traveling to work or live in Japan. But even if everyone in Korea were made to take Japanese names, they still spoke Korean, so Judo was still pronounced Yudo during the occupation.

This 10% figure is interesting. Where can I read about this?