Kung Fu vs MMA

[JowGaWolf]

I was actually watching a couple of your uploads last night. All the props in the world for doing real sparring.

Question, how different do you think your style would be if you did not?

Sparring is EVERYTHING especially when it comes to Kung Fu. There is no way to fully understand kung fu without sparring. When I say sparring is everything, I mean that I have to use the techniques that I drill. If I don't use Jow Ga Kung techniques in sparring then I won't be good with using Jow Ga Kung Fu. This applies with all fighting system. If I didn't spar using Jow Ga then I would be like the guy in red from Video 3. Keep in mind that this is not an insult to anyone that doesn't spar. Not everyone takes martial arts to learn how to fight with it.

Here's the difference between a Jow Ga student who spars using Jow Ga vs a Jow Ga student who doesn't spar using Jow Ga. You can clearly see the difference of who spars and who doesn't

Video#1. This is the closest I've gotten to actually fighting using Jow Ga. I'm at 40% speed and power and I'm still pulling punches and kicks to protect my sparring partner. It is the only time I have sparred without the focus of learning. My sparring partner to this day thought I was going at 60% percent. But in the video this is me just relaxing. When you relax speed and power increases greatly even if you aren't adding to it.

Video # 2 Jow Ga from Australia sparring they are always working and sparring with Jow Ga Kung Fu. they have a lot of sparring videos

Video #3 Jow Ga student that claims 30 years of martial arts experience. Jow Ga is in the red. You can find more of his Youtube videos here

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sport fighting...unless something unusual happens...half of the fighters Lose.
Even all those amazing mma fights...in every fight 50% lose.
Not a great win/lose ratio.

When there is

- birth, there is death.
- together, there is separate.
- win, there is lose.
- ...

Of course if you don't own anything, you won't lose anything. If you never compete, you will never lose. If you compete, you will have to take chance to lose.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And look at the replies you've had. Sounds like everyone's got the same opinion

Almost the same. I'm the exception. In order for a kung fu practitioner to come out on top, they only have to try to use the style that they train in. If a kung fu practitioner is going to lose then at least lose by doing kung fu. I've seen so many Kung Fu vs ??? videos and very few actually has kung fu in it. Like the MMA vs Tai chi. The guy claims to be a Tai Chi master and when the fight came he didn't use any Tai Chi at all. Not even basic Tai Chi. This is what I don't like and what irritates me the most. People claiming to be something and then never showing those techniques that they claim to be good at.
This guy may have lost, but he made an effort to use what he trains and you can see the respect he gets at the end for doing so. You can also see the winner lay on the ground breathing hard. So we know he did his best as well.

No one likes a fake. It's ok for people to say. I train martial arts but I don't train to use it in a fight. People can and do respect that. Almost every fighter respects effort because they know from first hand experience that it's not easy learning how to use the techniques. It takes effort and practice. If kung fu practitioners would have done this from the beginning then there would be less of a Style vs Style mentality out there. Some people say that Kung Fu is about being honorable but then you have those same people go out and be less than honest about their ability. People like that are full of Ego, arrogance, and lack honor because they can't be honest to themselves about their training.

I'll get off my soap box now.

 

[Martial D]

Sparring is EVERYTHING especially when it comes to Kung Fu. There is no way to fully understand kung fu without sparring. When I say sparring is everything, I mean that I have to use the techniques that I drill. If I don't use Jow Ga Kung techniques in sparring then I won't be good with using Jow Ga Kung Fu. This applies with all fighting system. If I didn't spar using Jow Ga then I would be like the guy in red from Video 3. Keep in mind that this is not an insult to anyone that doesn't spar. Not everyone takes martial arts to learn how to fight with it.

Here's the difference between a Jow Ga student who spars using Jow Ga vs a Jow Ga student who doesn't spar using Jow Ga. You can clearly see the difference of who spars and who doesn't

Video#1. This is the closest I've gotten to actually fighting using Jow Ga. I'm at 40% speed and power and I'm still pulling punches and kicks to protect my sparring partner. It is the only time I have sparred without the focus of learning. My sparring partner to this day thought I was going at 60% percent. But in the video this is me just relaxing. When you relax speed and power increases greatly even if you aren't adding to it.

Video # 2 Jow Ga from Australia sparring they are always working and sparring with Jow Ga Kung Fu. they have a lot of sparring videos

Video #3 Jow Ga student that claims 30 years of martial arts experience. Jow Ga is in the red. You can find more of his Youtube videos here

You raise an important point. When I was training pure Wing Chun, it took concerted effort to maintain technique during live sparring. Learning different hand positions and footwork is one thing, but using them in an alive situation is TOTALLY different.

This is why, I believe, we see so many supposedly high level Kung Fu guys get rolled in these videos. Many schools have become detached from the 'martial' part of their art.

 

[JowGaWolf]

By the way, the Drunken Kung fu concept of fighting is more like this. If I were to use the concept, it would be from the aspect of me faking that I'm extremely exhausted or dazed / wounded from a punch that landed. I want to fake that I'm really injured when I'm not. I may also fake clumsiness with my footwork to make my opponent think that I'm uncoordinated. The key is not to oversell when faking.

 

[Steve]

I don't personally get a lot out of these types of videos. I bet, though, that the competitors learned a lot about what they are good and not very good at from the experience.

 

[Martial D]

I don't personally get a lot out of these types of videos. I bet, though, that the competitors learned a lot about what they are good and not very good at from the experience.

Ya, the vid is just an illustration. There's a lot of 'this doesn't work because it's not mma and especially cma hate out there by those that are hypnotized by the status quo.

Let's look at the history of mma public perception. First, nobody thought striking worked, and that all real fights end up on the ground. The haters hated on striking. Then the striking caught up. Then people said traditional styles of grappling didn't work, and along comes a few top notch judo players. They hated on karate for a while, same thing happens.Karatekas Killin it.

Now the focus of the haters is cma and aikido. Will the trend continue?

 

[Tez3]

Ya, the vid is just an illustration. There's a lot of 'this doesn't work because it's not mma and especially cma hate out there by those that are hypnotized by the status quo.

Let's look at the history of mma public perception. First, nobody thought striking worked, and that all real fights end up on the ground. The haters hated on striking. Then the striking caught up. Then people said traditional styles of grappling didn't work, and along comes a few top notch judo players. They hated on karate for a while, same thing happens.Karatekas Killin it.

Now the focus of the haters is cma and aikido. Will the trend continue?

Sigh. Look the fan boys maybe thought all that but those of us who have been in MMA since it first came about didn't. The public didn't know anything about MMA so wouldn't have had any perception of what it was supposed to be. No one hated striking, it's all waffle you have got from somewhere. Sigh.

 

[Martial D]

I don't know about that. I think that for a long time, styles have been largely homogenus and isolated from each other. I think as a result of this, many of them withered and stagnated.

I think the Advent of mma and these sorts of hard looks has been a boon around the board in terms of bringing the 'martial' back to tma.

 

[DanT]

This tribute video contains lots of footage of Shaolin monks sparring outsiders. Watch how the monks stay true to their techniques. This is videos of live sparring, not a movie, yet they actually practice using their techniques in sparring.

 

[Tez3]

many of them withered and stagnated.

The act of withering precludes stagnating...care to name the style that did either of these?

these sorts of hard looks

Hard looks can really hurt..........

 

[Martial D]

The act of withering precludes stagnating...care to name the style that did either of these?



Hard looks can really hurt..........

Many forms of traditional martial arts across the board,we both know there are many schools within every style. Any school that does not face the world..ie instructors that don't understand actual combat teaching students and the cycle perpetuates.

 

[Buka]

Sport fighting...unless something unusual happens...half of the fighters Lose.
Even all those amazing mma fights...in every fight 50% lose.
Not a great win/lose ratio.

I never thought of that. That's pretty cool.

 

[Steve]

Sport fighting...unless something unusual happens...half of the fighters Lose.
Even all those amazing mma fights...in every fight 50% lose.
Not a great win/lose ratio.

That's why I compete against kids. Pads the win column.

Seriously, though, losing is a valuable and necessary part of competition. Unless you want to be a pro, it literally doesn't matter whether you win or lose. Winning is validation that what you worked on in preparation for that competition worked. But win or lose, you will learn a lot about what you are good at and what you are not good at.

 

[Tez3]

Many forms of traditional martial arts across the board,we both know there are many schools within every style. Any school that does not face the world..ie instructors that don't understand actual combat teaching students and the cycle perpetuates.

That's a politicians answer, tell us nothing at all. 'School that doesn't face the world', that doesn't mean anything either. So, really the answer is you don't know.

 

[Steve]

A good example of withering and stagnating is aikido. Not my judgment. Aikidoka have acknowledged this and are concerned. It's pretty awesome to see so many dedicated aikidoka making a conscious effort to reverse the trend.

another is Tai Chi. Xue Sheng has addressed this in detail in some of his recent posts.

 

[Danny T]

That's why I compete against kids. Pads the win column.

Seriously, though, losing is a valuable and necessary part of competition. Unless you want to be a pro, it literally doesn't matter whether you win or lose. Winning is validation that what you worked on in preparation for that competition worked. But win or lose, you will learn a lot about what you are good at and what you are not good at.

I agree. Not knocking it. Just the great style vs style showdowns are foolish. 50% of the participants will lose...it doesn't mean one style is better only that individual at that time won.
In the long run it comes down to how one trains their particular whatever. Do they train to actually fight someone who fights or do they train it to fight someone who doesn't know how to fight. How much time is spent on actually developing fighting skills, or self defense skills, or forms skills, or fitness skills. All will have different level of fighting abilities. And then there is the Luck factor. Over the years have seen a lot of competitions where the less skill, less refined fighter who was getting a lesson suddenly get a lucky shot in and win. Does that mean they are better fighters or were they just fortunate to get in a good shot?

 

[Steve]

I agree. Not knocking it. Just the great style vs style showdowns are foolish. 50% of the participants will lose...it doesn't mean one style is better only that individual at that time won.
In the long run it comes down to how one trains their particular whatever. Do they train to actually fight someone who fights or do they train it to fight someone who doesn't know how to fight. How much time is spent on actually developing fighting skills, or self defense skills, or forms skills, or fitness skills. All will have different level of fighting abilities. And then there is the Luck factor. Over the years have seen a lot of competitions where the less skill, less refined fighter who was getting a lesson suddenly get a lucky shot in and win. Does that mean they are better fighters or were they just fortunate to get in a good shot?

Honestly, I'm just glad some of these guys are taking the risk of failure. I don't care how bad you are. If you step up and give it a shot, you'll be better for it.

I try not to get into dissecting the competition videos for exactly this reason. So much we don't know about the level of competition or anything else. The exception is when someone purports to be an expert, and clearly doesn't have skill (e.g., ninja anti-grappling).

 

[Martial D]

That's a politicians answer, tell us nothing at all. 'School that doesn't face the world', that doesn't mean anything either. So, really the answer is you don't know.

I thought I was pretty clear. How about this, a lot of Karate, Kung Fu, Taekwondo, Aikido, Jujitsu, Hapkido, and Tai Chi schools.

Any school that advertises as a combat art but does not train for alive combat.

 

[Martial D]

Does that mean they are better fighters or were they just fortunate to get in a good shot?

No, but it means both of them aquired a taste of the sort of real life practical application that even a lifetime of drilling with compliant partners would never give them.