Kukkiwon – do we really need it?

[ralphmcpherson]

Wow, what a really well thought out, mature and intelligent post.

You fail to understand that people can strongly disagree on a particular topic, yet still remain civil. They can make their point(s) without resorting to the sort of juvenile retort you've made. Jeremy and I, for example, disagree on this topic yet we have had several (I'd say many) excellent conversations through the years. I can respect his view point and the fact that we may disagree from time to time on some things allows us both to reflect on our own opinions. We may change an opinion or stance on a topic, or not, but we have and provide that opportunity. That is why we can strongly disagree in this thread yet strongly agree on something else in another thread. It's called being an adult. Give it a shot.

Good post. People should stay civil despite having different opinions. It is a touchy subject, moreso I believe for kukkiwon members because as someone else said "if the kukkiwon disappeared tomorrow NOTHING would change" and that is the bottom line. Our club thought long and hard before leaving the kukkiwon and there were the doomsayers within our org throwing out all sorts of theories of the horrible things that would happen if we ever dared leave. Anyway, 15 years on we are the strongest, most succesful club in our whole area with over 4000 students and very highly regarded in this country. We left, nothing happened, its a little like the Y2K bug, all propoganda no substance.

 

[troubleenuf]

Here is how I see it (you dont have to see it this way but thats OK)
In the US the Kukkiwon is used this way:

By schools whos Black Belts are certified (I used to be guilty of this too) to pretend that they are better than those who are not certified. In the end this is not true. Especially since in 99% of the cases NO MEMBER OR OFFICIAL of the KUkkiwon has EVER set foot in any of these schools or clubs.

In addition Im betting that 90% of the current Black Belts certified by the Kukkiwon in the US have NEVER BEEN TRAINED by a member or official of the Kukkiwon for more than a few hours at best.

So in the end tell me.. how does being certified by the Kukkiwon help or make anyone better?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Here is how I see it (you dont have to see it this way but thats OK)
In the US the Kukkiwon is used this way:

By schools whos Black Belts are certified (I used to be guilty of this too) to pretend that they are better than those who are not certified. In the end this is not true. Especially since in 99% of the cases NO MEMBER OR OFFICIAL of the KUkkiwon has EVER set foot in any of these schools or clubs.

In addition Im betting that 90% of the current Black Belts certified by the Kukkiwon in the US have NEVER BEEN TRAINED by a member or official of the Kukkiwon for more than a few hours at best.

So in the end tell me.. how does being certified by the Kukkiwon help or make anyone better?

Good post. I constantly hear of clubs offering kukkiwon certificates saying to their clientel that their black belts somehow have more 'credibility' or are somehow more 'reputable' because their black belts have this certification. In many cases the general public fall for this and think that club is somehow 'better' and by the time the student realises the kukkiwon certification means nothing (unless they are one of the 1% or less of students who want to go to the olympics), its too late, they are part of the club's system so they just stay. I will give the kukkiwon one thing, it is a powerful marketing tool to use gain potential clientel. Other than that though, I fail to see any advantage.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Good post. I constantly hear of clubs offering kukkiwon certificates saying to their clientel that their black belts somehow have more 'credibility' or are somehow more 'reputable' because their black belts have this certification. In many cases the general public fall for this and think that club is somehow 'better' and by the time the student realises the kukkiwon certification means nothing (unless they are one of the 1% or less of students who want to go to the olympics), its too late, they are part of the club's system so they just stay. I will give the kukkiwon one thing, it is a powerful marketing tool to use gain potential clientel. Other than that though, I fail to see any advantage.

What advantage do you gain by not offering kukkiwon certification? What advantage does a school certificate give you? I suppose the school certificate is cheaper for the student and takes less time to process, but is there any other advantage? As a school owner, giving kukkiwon certification doesn't have to cost you anything. The student is presumably paying for certification anyway, right? And as for the argument that your instructor's certificate is of more "value" than a kukkiwon cert, I just don't see it that way. Either way, your instructor is testing you. Your instructor sees you in class everyday and your instructor is the one who approves your promotion, kukkiwon or not. What's the difference? I don't see how this negatively affects the student/instructor relationship.

Do we "need" the kukkiwon? I guess the answer is technically no. If the kukkiwon disappeared tomorrow our training probably wouldn't change all that much. If you place value in a cert backed by a large org, then use the kukkiwon. If you don't, then don't.

I don't understand the need to talk negatively about the kukkiwon or any other org. Any org will have its problems, but there seems to be a lot of passive aggressive insults being tossed around in these types of threads, of the "if you want to be associated with 'those' kinds of people" variety, but I really don't think that's fair. There are too many anecdotal stories of kukkiwon misdeeds passed around on the Internet. We could say the same things about many groups. Governments do questionable things, but I don't see anything wrong with being proud of your country. Some Catholic priests are kid touchers, but that doesn't mean everyone should quit the church. There are dirty police officers, but that doesn't make cops a bad group as a whole.

I personally value my kukkiwon certification. I originally had only a "school" cert. I got my kukkiwon later (I wanted to compete at WTF events). As a result, my "US" rank and my kukkiwon rank were not the same. I don't think I'm "better" than everyone who has a school cert, but I'm happy with my kukkiwon.

I hope this post is coherent. I'm typing on an iPhone and it's a pain to scroll up and back to remember what I was talking about! Oh, and have a great weekend!

 

[andyjeffries]

Good post. I constantly hear of clubs offering kukkiwon certificates saying to their clientel that their black belts somehow have more 'credibility' or are somehow more 'reputable' because their black belts have this certification. In many cases the general public fall for this and think that club is somehow 'better' and by the time the student realises the kukkiwon certification means nothing (unless they are one of the 1% or less of students who want to go to the olympics), its too late, they are part of the club's system so they just stay. I will give the kukkiwon one thing, it is a powerful marketing tool to use gain potential clientel. Other than that though, I fail to see any advantage.

The advantage to me is maintaining rank when you go to another club.

If you came to our club with a Kukkiwon 4th Dan, that's what you are in our club. If you come to us with a Kwan rank from one of the main kwans in Korea, you're likely to be considered maybe the same grade or a grade or two below that (depending on your skill level). If you come to us with "Mr Smith's Taekwondo, headed by 19th Dan Supreme Grand Poobah Smith" you're likely to be wearing a white belt until assessed and given an appropriate rank.

That's the advantage of recognised certification.

It doesn't necessarily affect how quickly you will get your next promotion with us - that's based on skill level rather than rank, but it does affect your starting rank with our club.

 

[Markku P]

The advantage to me is maintaining rank when you go to another club.

If you came to our club with a Kukkiwon 4th Dan, that's what you are in our club. If you come to us with a Kwan rank from one of the main kwans in Korea, you're likely to be considered maybe the same grade or a grade or two below that (depending on your skill level). If you come to us with "Mr Smith's Taekwondo, headed by 19th Dan Supreme Grand Poobah Smith" you're likely to be wearing a white belt until assessed and given an appropriate rank.

That's the advantage of recognised certification.

It doesn't necessarily affect how quickly you will get your next promotion with us - that's based on skill level rather than rank, but it does affect your starting rank with our club.

Just curious, what you do when someone who has Kukkiwon certificate but don't know any of Poomsae and would like to join your school?

/Markku P.

 

[andyjeffries]

They would be considered their current Kukkiwon rank and we would get them up to speed with poomsae as quickly as they could cope with. They certainly wouldn't be promoted again until they knew them. If we knew the instructor and they literally knew no poomsae then it may include a quick call to the instructor to ask how they got their rank if they didn't know them.

 

[Markku P]

They would be considered their current Kukkiwon rank and we would get them up to speed with poomsae as quickly as they could cope with. They certainly wouldn't be promoted again until they knew them. If we knew the instructor and they literally knew no poomsae then it may include a quick call to the instructor to ask how they got their rank if they didn't know them.

Last year I got 5 students from other school and they haven't done almost any poomsae at all. In their school they haven't done any poomsae, just sparring training.I did accept their Kukkiwon rank and now they are training with me. ( focus only for competition training )

/Markku P.

 

[troubleenuf]

So basically what you are saying is that you accepted 5 students into your school that did not meet your standards of black belt but you allowed them to keep their black belts above your students who did meet your standards.... simply because of a piece of paper. If you really step back and think about that- take out the fact that you hold the Kukkiwon in high regard. Does that really make sense to you? You have standards. You make your students adhere to those standards, yet you accepted students and placed those students at ranks above or at the same rank as your students even though they did not meet your standards simply because they produced a piece of paper.

Last year I got 5 students from other school and they haven't done almost any poomsae at all. In their school they haven't done any poomsae, just sparring training.I did accept their Kukkiwon rank and now they are training with me. ( focus only for competition training )

/Markku P.

 

[Markku P]

So basically what you are saying is that you accepted 5 students into your school that did not meet your standards of black belt but you allowed them to keep their black belts above your students who did meet your standards.... simply because of a piece of paper. If you really step back and think about that- take out the fact that you hold the Kukkiwon in high regard. Does that really make sense to you? You have standards. You make your students adhere to those standards, yet you accepted students and placed those students at ranks above or at the same rank as your students even though they did not meet your standards simply because they produced a piece of paper.

I hold Kukkiwon certificates high regard?? ( really? ) ..and I should say no for kids who needs my help..? It's not about piece of paper. I am ready to help anyone who needs help and next belt test they will know what rest of my students knows. By the way, I can't blame them that they have a black belts, it was their instructor who gave those Kukkiwon certificates )

..and I can't remove their Kukkiwon Ranks..?

/Markku P,

 

[troubleenuf]

Actually you dont have to accept them at black belt Kukkiwon or otherwise. As I have stated before I have sat down with students when they have came in that have not met standards and have placed them were I have felt they would be successful in my school regardless of their certification. I guess I just assumed you held the Kukkiwon in high regard since you accepted their black belts without question. There was a day when you could do that. Unfortunately those days are long gone and while there are those out there that would like to keep claiming that a Kukkiwon black belt should be good anywhere it is just not true. If there are NO STANDARDS and there ARE NONE because the Kukkiwon does NOT ENFORCE any (you can say anything you want on this subject but in the end there are no enforceable standards) then you have people running around handing out certificates to people who do not deserve them. In the end it is your school. YOU decide who you accept as a black belt and who you do not. If someone comes in and does not meet your standards it is up to you what rank you put him at.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The advantage to me is maintaining rank when you go to another club.

If you came to our club with a Kukkiwon 4th Dan, that's what you are in our club. If you come to us with a Kwan rank from one of the main kwans in Korea, you're likely to be considered maybe the same grade or a grade or two below that (depending on your skill level). If you come to us with "Mr Smith's Taekwondo, headed by 19th Dan Supreme Grand Poobah Smith" you're likely to be wearing a white belt until assessed and given an appropriate rank.

That's the advantage of recognised certification.

It doesn't necessarily affect how quickly you will get your next promotion with us - that's based on skill level rather than rank, but it does affect your starting rank with our club.

From what Ive read on here from most instructors/school owners it seems most people dont automatically maintain rank anyway, they assess the student and start them off at an appropriate level irrespective of kukkiwon rank. I would imagine that if someone came into your school with a kukkiwon 1st dan piece of paper and they were clearly not up to speed, they didnt know the forms, had very poor technique, poor sparring etc I doubt the student would want to prance around in a black belt in a class where they clearly are not at that level, at least I know I wouldnt want to. I know of friends at kukkiwon clubs who tell me all the time that if I switched to their club they would honour my black belt anyway. It all comes down to whether or not you know your stuff. Generally, if you are black belt standard MOST clubs will honour your rank anyway regardless of what piece of paper you have just as clubs wont honour your rank if you are clearly not up to speed. I find it quite funny that people have kukkiwon black belts come into their clubs and they dont even know the forms, never is there a better example of kukkiwon certification having no meaning, clearly these people are getting certification for something they dont even know, its actaully quite funny when you think about it. It would be like me sending away for a medical degree despite not knowing anything about medicine, and just having the degree arriving in the mail. Im actaully really surprised that you would just honour the rank of anyone who wanders through the doors of your school because of a piece of paper, its your school, your standards and you let anyone wear a black belt because of a piece of paper they got elsewhere even if they clearly have no idea what they are doing. That does seem odd, and it appears most instructors on here dont operate like that and place the student at the appropriate rank until they reach black belt.

 

[Markku P]

I guess I just assumed you held the Kukkiwon in high regard since you accepted their black belts without question.

I am pretty confident about my ablilty to teach so I accept people to my school from any organization and I don't really care where they come. If they show cerificates I acccept them and I know I can teach them become as good as any other student of mine. Last 25 year I had around 10 black belts from other schools who has started with me and I no problems at all. Like I mention before for next belt test they have to know same material than everyone else.

My students know how we work and there will be always black belts from another schools who might want to train with us so my students trust my judgement.

/Markku P.

PS: I might be against rules of our national federation say No for students with Kukkiwon certificates..

 

[Markku P]

I haven't told how you can get a Kukkiwon certificates in here. It's quite simple. Chairman of the club will send application to to national federation, will pay and 2-3 months later he will get certificates. It doesn't matter what belt rank a chairman has. I asked from person who is a contact person in national federation what students need to know and he told me that "they don't care, it's school's decision how they like to do, we are more like a service organization"

/Markku P.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Actually you dont have to accept them at black belt Kukkiwon or otherwise. As I have stated before I have sat down with students when they have came in that have not met standards and have placed them were I have felt they would be successful in my school regardless of their certification. I guess I just assumed you held the Kukkiwon in high regard since you accepted their black belts without question. There was a day when you could do that. Unfortunately those days are long gone and while there are those out there that would like to keep claiming that a Kukkiwon black belt should be good anywhere it is just not true. If there are NO STANDARDS and there ARE NONE because the Kukkiwon does NOT ENFORCE any (you can say anything you want on this subject but in the end there are no enforceable standards) then you have people running around handing out certificates to people who do not deserve them. In the end it is your school. YOU decide who you accept as a black belt and who you do not. If someone comes in and does not meet your standards it is up to you what rank you put him at.

Great post and the key word in all that is "ENFORCE". If the kukkiwon do not enforce their standards then you just cant go honouring the rank of any one who comes wandering through the doors of your dojang. Until the standards are enforced the certificate is only a piece of paper unfortuantely.

 

[Markku P]

the certificate is only a piece of paper unfortuantely.

This is what many Korean grand masters has told me personally. What they normally ask is who is my teacher and then they might reply something about him.

/Markku P

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Actually you dont have to accept them at black belt Kukkiwon or otherwise. As I have stated before I have sat down with students when they have came in that have not met standards and have placed them were I have felt they would be successful in my school regardless of their certification. I guess I just assumed you held the Kukkiwon in high regard since you accepted their black belts without question. There was a day when you could do that. Unfortunately those days are long gone and while there are those out there that would like to keep claiming that a Kukkiwon black belt should be good anywhere it is just not true. If there are NO STANDARDS and there ARE NONE because the Kukkiwon does NOT ENFORCE any (you can say anything you want on this subject but in the end there are no enforceable standards) then you have people running around handing out certificates to people who do not deserve them. In the end it is your school. YOU decide who you accept as a black belt and who you do not. If someone comes in and does not meet your standards it is up to you what rank you put him at.

This is a great point. The KKW (and to be fair, other orgs) have standards that have and can be changed on a whim. And in truth, shouldn't the student be more interested in the training itself than the color of the belt they wear? If they have to go to another school of the same org and they don't meet the standards of the new school for the rank they have, they should be more than willing to 'step down' as it were because it should mean that they will receive additional training they don't yet possess.

I'm reminded of something George Mattson (first American Uechi Ryu BB) once put in one of his Uechi Ryu books. While training on Okinawa he was at the central Uechi Ryu Dojo (back in the 50's). He trained alongside a number on men wearing white belts. As they trained he observed that their Karate was extremely powerful and later found out they were Godan (5th Dan). He inquired as to why they were wearing white belts and was told that they just never got around to buying a black belt and didn't think it would help their Karate any if they did.

That is the proper attitude and mind set in regards to rank. It isn't about what your wear, where you got it or the number of hash marks you may have. It is about what you can do and eventually what you can teach that defines you as a martial artist.