Kukkiwon – do we really need it?

[Markku P]

Again, why do you feel you are entitled to that information? Outside of getting your certificates you have no financial input? Are you a shareholder? Did you make a charitable donation to them?


So you wouldn't mind your job posting how much money you make for everyone to see? This is not a publicly owned company, so why do people feel they are entitled to look into their books?

Well, I don't get millions of dollar all over the world every year. I don't think most people even know they are paying for the private corporation (?)
Why so secretive? If my memory serves right Kukkiwon had some problems with where money has gone in the past.

/Markku P.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Well, I don't get millions of dollar all over the world every year. I don't think most people even know they are paying for the private corporation (?)
Why so secretive? If my memory serves right Kukkiwon had some problems with where money has gone in the past.

/Markku P.

I don't know about you Mark, but I keep seeing the same few diligently trying to defend the KKW and everything Korean. And with the same ole party lines;

• They're your seniors so respect them without question...and don't ask any.
• It's their organization and their country and they can do what they want.
• It's none of your business.
• They would tell you, but its part of your journey in the arts.

And I think any organization that has had the illegal issues that they've had in the past would go out of their way to answer exactly the kinds of questions you've raised.

 

[Markku P]

I don't know about you Mark, but I keep seeing the same few diligently trying to defend the KKW and everything Korean. And with the same ole party lines;

• They're your seniors so respect them without question...and don't ask any.
• It's their organization and their country and they can do what they want.
• It's none of your business.
• They would tell you, but its part of your journey in the arts.

And I think any organization that has had the illegal issues that they've had in the past would go out of their way to answer exactly the kinds of questions you've raised.

Yes, I have seen this too often and so many countries. Exact same arguments..and if you dare make questions..!

/Markku P.

 

[troubleenuf]

And if the Kukkiwon disappeared of the face of the earth tomorrow would it really matter? Nope life would go on and in 99% of the gyms nothing would change. I think that more than says everything right there.

 

[Cyriacus]

And if the Kukkiwon disappeared of the face of the earth tomorrow would it really matter? Nope life would go on and in 99% of the gyms nothing would change. I think that more than says everything right there.

Its an interesting subject really. We dont need the Kukkiwon, i think thats clear. But is it so bad that it exists? The Kukkiwon is kind of what Thailand is to Muay Thai. It is neither its Headquarters nor its Manager, but it serves like an Epicenter. Perhaps the Kukkiwon shouldnt be as much of a Commercial Operation, but we cant really put it down too hard for existing.

If it didnt exist, nothing would change, except then youd all have to call yourself WTF TKD Practitioners
(http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?97706-Enlighten-Me... incase you dont get what i mean)

 

[Archtkd]

I don't need money but I would be foolish to say No. We can get money for competitions, rents (50-80%), sometimes we can hire instructors as full or part part time. We can get some small money from each class we held. Downside is that our personal Tax rate is quite high..( but that I don't mind, we have free education and health care etc.)

Every sport can get money from government and the city. In the long run it will be cheaper because all the health benefits of training.

/Markku P.

Your reply sir shows we live in two very different worlds. The government pays 50 to 80 percent of your rent? The government pays for your healthcare and education?

Here in St. Louis, if you live in the suburbs, annual commercial rent runs $18 to $25 per square foot net net net (triple net) in strip malls, where many martial arts schools are located. Triple net means that in addition to the base rent, a dojang owner has to pay additional fees for parking space, property management, snow clean-up, garbage collection, etc. The cost of utilities, liability insurance, business insurance and health insurance is not included in those figures. Do the math for a base rent of dojang that is only 3,000 square feet and you get the picture. Oh, initial build-out (improvements) for the space might cost anywhere from $20,000 to $50,000, paid for by the dojang owner upfront.

I can go on, but in this country dojang owners are on their own, as I mentioned in another post. People make all this silly noise about Kukkiwon this, WTF that, ITF there, etc. but for the most part those organizations -- and independent ones some people are creating in their heads -- don't mean much. Belonging to an association, choosing to affiliate with the Kukkiwon, WTF, etc are often luxuries that many Taekwondo teachers enjoy or should enjoy when they've figured out how to keep their dojang doors open and created a sustainable membership body that can afford to pay for and enjoy that luxury. That goes for competition, especially national and international competition.

 

[miguksaram]

Well, I don't get millions of dollar all over the world every year. I don't think most people even know they are paying for the private corporation (?)
Why so secretive? If my memory serves right Kukkiwon had some problems with where money has gone in the past.

/Markku P.

They are no longer a private corporation. They are now a government company. Yes, they did have some problems, which they have been punished for, it is also one of the things that lead up to the government takeover of KKW.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever called to talk to someone or call to get an appointment to ask these questions?

 

[miguksaram]

I don't know about you Mark, but I keep seeing the same few diligently trying to defend the KKW and everything Korean. And with the same ole party lines;

• They're your seniors so respect them without question...and don't ask any.
• It's their organization and their country and they can do what they want.
• It's none of your business.
• They would tell you, but its part of your journey in the arts.

And I think any organization that has had the illegal issues that they've had in the past would go out of their way to answer exactly the kinds of questions you've raised.

It's same answers because it's the same question. You ask me what 2+2= I will tell you 4. Then someone else asks if I had 2 apples and 2 oranges how many pieces of fruit do I have...guess what...still 4. Point is, that the answers are not going to change just because someone else starts up the same thread.

Am I defending KKW practices? No. KKW does what it does. I think my answer from the beginning was very to the point, if you do not like it then you leave. Markku has a situation with his government, well then either move out of the country where you don't have to be part of the KKW to have a school, start a process to make a change to your governmental laws in order to change the policy of needing an international organization, or change to ITF.

Does he have the right to question KKW? He has every right to ask. Do they have the right to not answer? Yes. My question still stands. Have you or anyone else gone directly to KKW with these questions? Not just through email or a phone call, but show up on their step and talk to someone about all of this?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And if the Kukkiwon disappeared of the face of the earth tomorrow would it really matter? Nope life would go on and in 99% of the gyms nothing would change. I think that more than says everything right there.

I think you've summed the whole thing up rather nicely

 

[andyjeffries]

Well, I don't get millions of dollar all over the world every year. I don't think most people even know they are paying for the private corporation (?)

If they don't then what do they think the Kukkiwon is, a charity? If they don't know it's a regular corporation, they should ask.

Why so secretive?

It's not secretive, it's just normal business practice. My customers pay me for a service/product. If they asked where the money went I would answer with "cocaine and hookers, why the f*** do you care?". Well, probably not (as it's not true and a bit rude), but the point is the same. You paid your money and you got your service/product. What I do with the earnings/profit is entirely the business of the shareholders of my company.

Most private corporations don't publish detailed information on where their money goes, except for the accounts that I assume most governments require of them. If you were that interested, I'm sure you could find someone who spoke fluent Korean to look up their accounts on whatever government site holds them.

Why don't they publish them online - because they don't have to...

If my memory serves right Kukkiwon had some problems with where money has gone in the past.

And they were investigated by the government, found guilty, had changes made to the corporate structure and have moved on. The government isn't currently investigating them (as far as I can find from searching) so they are happy that things are above board. There's no point in keep saying "yeah, but under a past administration things were dodgy". Bush was well deserving of his nickname "the global village idiot", but I don't consider America a permanently bad/stupid country because of the actions of one administration.

As Miguksaram rightly says though, if you want the answers to your questions asking them over and over again in online forums won't get you the answers as well as asking them. I'd even go as far to say, if you can't visit Korea (I know it's financially unfeasible for some people) then pick up the phone and call them. Be polite and I'm sure you'll get some answers.

 

[d1jinx]

I think you've summed the whole thing up rather nicely

yeah, lets all run out and join the INTERNATIONAL DONG SOO KOO ***. thats one that matters.

 

[d1jinx]

Well, I don't get millions of dollar all over the world every year. I don't think most people even know they are paying for the private corporation (?)
Why so secretive? If my memory serves right Kukkiwon had some problems with where money has gone in the past.

/Markku P.

so let me get this straight, your country finances 50 - 80% of your business so everytime I buy some swedish fish or swedish chocolate I am paying for your business??? I wanna see your financials to know how much of my candy bill pays your light bills. better yet, I just wont buy anymore candy from sweden.

 

[d1jinx]

My question still stands. Have you or anyone else gone directly to KKW with these questions? Not just through email or a phone call, but show up on their step and talk to someone about all of this?

jeremy, your wasting your time. If someone has a question and cant figure out how to contact them and ask in the first place, they really dont wanna know and just wish to complain/whine/ and argue. trying to apply reason and explanations to this conversation is a waste of time. really simple answer, email them , include your DAN # so they know who you are, and ask your question. If you dont have a DAN number then you are a "NON-FACTOR" and do not deserve an answer in the first place. If you do and they wont answer you, then come back here and complain and maybe someone will provide some sympathy but more than likely not and the Kukkiwon haters and HOME-MADE-ORG lovers will pipe in and let everyone know what we already know, that they see no reason for the KKW in the first place and everyone is suckers for sending their money to some worthless "KOREAN" ORG.

anyone feel free to respond, cause you'll have the last word. I'm done.

gotta go renew my NRA membership. I enjoy sending money to different organizations regardless of what use they have.


dueces. I have left the building.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

yeah, lets all run out and join the INTERNATIONAL DONG SOO KOO ***. thats one that matters.

Wow, what a really well thought out, mature and intelligent post.

You fail to understand that people can strongly disagree on a particular topic, yet still remain civil. They can make their point(s) without resorting to the sort of juvenile retort you've made. Jeremy and I, for example, disagree on this topic yet we have had several (I'd say many) excellent conversations through the years. I can respect his view point and the fact that we may disagree from time to time on some things allows us both to reflect on our own opinions. We may change an opinion or stance on a topic, or not, but we have and provide that opportunity. That is why we can strongly disagree in this thread yet strongly agree on something else in another thread. It's called being an adult. Give it a shot.

 

[miguksaram]

What I try to do, or at least started trying to do, is picture myself at the bar having drinks with all of you discussing these same topics. How I respond is how I would try to respond in real life. Those who have met me in person know this. I have no animosity towards anyone here, nor do I ever plan on it. Why should I? It does not accomplish anything nor does it help my health to hold on to any type of anger.

Do things get heated? Yes..which just means it is time for another round of shots...DJinx...your turn to buy. I understand DJinx frustration because as I stated earlier, this subject has just been rehashed over and over and over and over and over...well you get the idea. So I don't expect any new input of great revelations. It is what it is.

No organization is perfect and no organization is a be all end all. If KKW disappeared today, yes, life would go on. IF ALL THE ORGS disappeared today, life would still go on and my training would not change. If people have issues, then by all means take it up with the org and ask your questions. You can post on here but don't expect a revelation because, as far as I know, there are no KKW reps who read this. You might be better off posting your question on TKD.net where I know KKW reps read the postings.

 

[Markku P]

so let me get this straight, your country finances 50 - 80% of your business so everytime I buy some swedish fish or swedish chocolate I am paying for your business??? I wanna see your financials to know how much of my candy bill pays your light bills. better yet, I just wont buy anymore candy from sweden.

I haven't said that government/city finances us 50-80%. Our schools can get support for the rents 50-100% if they are non profit organizations. I have a business and as business I won't get any support. We have also a club ( no profit ) and this way our club can get some support. (it's bit complicated so I can't explain all.)

..if you buy any Swedish candy or fish then it won't help us they are also private corporations and they will pay tax in your country. ( and I believe their financial records are public..:ultracool

/Markku P.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What I try to do, or at least started trying to do, is picture myself at the bar having drinks with all of you discussing these same topics. How I respond is how I would try to respond in real life. Those who have met me in person know this. I have no animosity towards anyone here, nor do I ever plan on it. Why should I? It does not accomplish anything nor does it help my health to hold on to any type of anger.

Bingo!

I post the same way I would discuss a topic face-to-face. We do this at work all the time. I can be in a heated, passionate debate with a fellow Deputy and five minutes later I'm backing him up or he is backing me up. I can't understand some people who have an all-or-nothing approach to these boards or life in general. They think, 'well I don't agree with this guy so he's the enemy so I'm going to hit him with a sarcastic remark and then simply leave the thread'. I just don't get it? A person has to be able to separate the person from the subject.

As far as contacting the KKW directly, good advice. If you like what they say then stay with them. If you don't then find the means to leave. As always, my bottom line is that it isn't where the paper comes from or the belt you wear, it's how you train and what you know and can do. That is the measure of a martial artist.

 

[Markku P]

They are no longer a private corporation. They are now a government company. Yes, they did have some problems, which they have been punished for, it is also one of the things that lead up to the government takeover of KKW.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever called to talk to someone or call to get an appointment to ask these questions?

Last time I visit at Kukkiwon was early -90 and we asked some questions but did't really get answers..some yelling we got..
OK, I understand that was long time ago..

Just that everyone understands..I will provide Kukkiwon certificates for my students. Payment is still quite small. However, I wish they are much more open with everything, make certain that everyone has same rules and some kind of system that they can follow everyone follow the rules.
I also think there should be total separation between WTF and Kukkiwon. No more forced payments for the Kukkiwon.

/Markku P.

 

[miguksaram]

Just that everyone understands..I will provide Kukkiwon certificates for my students. Payment is still quite small. However, I wish they are much more open with everything, make certain that everyone has same rules and some kind of system that they can follow everyone follow the rules.
I also think there should be total separation between WTF and Kukkiwon. No more forced payments for the Kukkiwon.

/Markku P.

Yes..yes..and if wishes were farts we would all smell.

 

[Archtkd]

I haven't said that government/city finances us 50-80%. Our schools can get support for the rents 50-100% if they are non profit organizations. I have a business and as business I won't get any support. We have also a club ( no profit ) and this way our club can get some support. (it's bit complicated so I can't explain all.)

..if you buy any Swedish candy or fish then it won't help us they are also private corporations and they will pay tax in your country. ( and I believe their financial records are public..:ultracool

/Markku P.

In this country if you operate as a non-profit your finances/annual tax returns are supposed to be open to the public, for inspection, at any time during regular business hours.