Krav-Maga??

[Gerry Seymour]

I see but for krav why are we not setting up elite female athletes vs average Male? Which includes elite males anyway.

I don't care how soccer moms perform. They don't factor in.

Well, first, most people won't ever become "elite". Secondly, because it was a simple point being made that in every MA, women do start at a physical disadvantage. The second half of the point is what you're making now - that the disadvantage applies less when you're more skilled than the other person. There are certainly elite women in MMA (and other fighting sports) who'd destroy me. Almost certainly within KM, as well.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you don't like to talk about "averages", then you can replace that with the concept of "all other factors being equal."

A woman with typical genetics who sits on her ***, eats junk food, and watches tv all day will be significantly weaker than a man with typical genetics who sits on his ***, eats junk food, and watches tv all day.

A woman with above average genetics who does manual labor for a living will be significantly weaker than a man with equally above average genetics who does that same manual labor job for a living.

A woman who trains professionally at an elite fight gym with the guidance of an expert strength & conditioning coach, fight coach, and nutritionist will be significantly weaker than a man with the same background who trains equally hard at that same gym with the same coaches - even if they are in the same weight class (which they likely won't be).

The practical upshot of this from a woman's self-defense point of view is that it's in her interest to not allow all other factors to be equal. If she wants to be able to fight off a male attacker, then she needs to train longer and harder and probably smarter than her male classmate would to get the same results.

 

[jobo]

If you don't like to talk about "averages", then you can replace that with the concept of "all other factors being equal."

A woman with typical genetics who sits on her ***, eats junk food, and watches tv all day will be significantly weaker than a man with typical genetics who sits on his ***, eats junk food, and watches tv all day.

A woman with above average genetics who does manual labor for a living will be significantly weaker than a man with equally above average genetics who does that same manual labor job for a living.

A woman who trains professionally at an elite fight gym with the guidance of an expert strength & conditioning coach, fight coach, and nutritionist will be significantly weaker than a man with the same background who trains equally hard at that same gym with the same coaches - even if they are in the same weight class (which they likely won't be).

The practical upshot of this from a woman's self-defense point of view is that it's in her interest to not allow all other factors to be equal. If she wants to be able to fight off a male attacker, then she needs to train longer and harder and probably smarter than her male classmate would to get the same results.

you've just substituted average with typical. what's typical genetics exactly ?

I'm guessing your going to come back and say average ?

 

[punisher73]

Muscular Strength in Women Compared to Men | Livestrong.com

From the article:
Muscle Numbers
Studies have proven again and again that men have a greater amount of skeletal muscle than women. In one such study that examined 468 men and women and was published in a 1985 issue of the “Journal of Applied Physiology,” researchers determined that men had an average of 72.6 pounds of muscle compared to the 46.2 pounds found in women. The men had 40 percent more muscle mass in the upper body and 33 percent more in the lower body.

Strength Translation
Men not only have more muscle, but pound for pound, their muscle is slightly stronger than a woman's -- about 5 to 10 percent, says Lou Schuler in "The New Rules of Lifting for Women." A study reported in a 1993 issue of the "European Journal of Applied Physiology and Occupational Physiology" attributed this strength difference to larger muscle fibers in men.

Back to "average" when talking in generalities without getting into tons of scientific papers done to show where the "average" came from. In the scientific world, when looking at human factors a bell curve has been used. That means that about 70% (68% if you REALLY want to be anal about the details) of the population fall within what has been measured and deemed "average" in the range (+/- 1 standard deviation of the exact middle point). Going further, 95% of the population is 2 standard deviations from the middle point, and 99.7% are 3 standard deviations away. Each of those deviations would also have a range for them. For example, the shortest man is at one extreme of the curve and the tallest man at the other end, they would be more than 3 standard deviations from the middle. So, breaking it down further, you have about 15% of the population that is either taller than the average height range or shorter than the average height range. The same is true of everything else that can be measured in human characteristics.

Now, you can further define your parameters to "test your hypothesis".

Here is a chart prepared using 8.4 million lifts on the bench press (at the bottom of the page you can link to other lifts), breaking it down between male and female, bodyweight and experience levels (beginner/novice/intermediate/advanced/elite. An elite 200 pound female has an average bench press of 253 lbs. A beginner 200 pound male has an average bench press of 138 lbs. An intermediate female has a bench press of 140 lbs.

Bench Press Standards for Men and Women (lb) - Strength Level

 

[jobo]

Muscular Strength in Women Compared to Men | Livestrong.com

From the article:
Muscle Numbers
Studies have proven again and again that men have a greater amount of skeletal muscle than women. In one such study that examined 468 men and women and was published in a 1985 issue of the “Journal of Applied Physiology,” researchers determined that men had an average of 72.6 pounds of muscle compared to the 46.2 pounds found in women. The men had 40 percent more muscle mass in the upper body and 33 percent more in the lower body.

Strength Translation
Men not only have more muscle, but pound for pound, their muscle is slightly stronger than a woman's -- about 5 to 10 percent, says Lou Schuler in "The New Rules of Lifting for Women." A study reported in a 1993 issue of the "European Journal of Applied Physiology and Occupational Physiology" attributed this strength difference to larger muscle fibers in men.

Back to "average" when talking in generalities without getting into tons of scientific papers done to show where the "average" came from. In the scientific world, when looking at human factors a bell curve has been used. That means that about 70% (68% if you REALLY want to be anal about the details) of the population fall within what has been measured and deemed "average" in the range (+/- 1 standard deviation of the exact middle point). Going further, 95% of the population is 2 standard deviations from the middle point, and 99.7% are 3 standard deviations away. Each of those deviations would also have a range for them. For example, the shortest man is at one extreme of the curve and the tallest man at the other end, they would be more than 3 standard deviations from the middle. So, breaking it down further, you have about 15% of the population that is either taller than the average height range or shorter than the average height range. The same is true of everything else that can be measured in human characteristics.

Now, you can further define your parameters to "test your hypothesis".

Here is a chart prepared using 8.4 million lifts on the bench press (at the bottom of the page you can link to other lifts), breaking it down between male and female, bodyweight and experience levels (beginner/novice/intermediate/advanced/elite. An elite 200 pound female has an average bench press of 253 lbs. A beginner 200 pound male has an average bench press of 138 lbs. An intermediate female has a bench press of 140 lbs.

Bench Press Standards for Men and Women (lb) - Strength Level

well were the average came from is very important if your claim on gender is on average stronger, and you also need to define stonger, the article identifies that women have greater resilience to exercise and that is most certainly one definition of being stronger

I hope this isn't another debate where you wade in with no evidence whatsoever ever

so, where your 3vidence that an out of condition female is weaker than an out of condition Male? and how are you going to determine they are both equally out of condition to make the comparison in the first place

 

[punisher73]

well were the average came from is very important if your claim on gender is on average stronger, and you also need to define stonger, the article identifies that women have greater resilience to exercise and that is most certainly one definition of being stronger

I hope this isn't another debate where you wade in with no evidence whatsoever ever

so, where your 3vidence that an out of condition female is weaker than an out of condition Male? and how are you going to determine they are both equally out of condition to make the comparison in the first place

did you even read the articles or links provided? If so, you would not have that question. Because, like last time it seems you ignore any actual supporting evidence and documentation when it is provided so you won't be wrong.

 

[jobo]

did you even read the articles or links provided? If so, you would not have that question. Because, like last time it seems you ignore any actual supporting evidence and documentation when it is provided so you won't be wrong.

yes I've read it and it's not there, have you read it, perhaps you could point out the section you claiming answers my questions

 

[drop bear]

Well, first, most people won't ever become "elite". Secondly, because it was a simple point being made that in every MA, women do start at a physical disadvantage. The second half of the point is what you're making now - that the disadvantage applies less when you're more skilled than the other person. There are certainly elite women in MMA (and other fighting sports) who'd destroy me. Almost certainly within KM, as well.

Everyone with an average level of physicality starts at a disadvantage with martial arts.

It is why strength and fitness is trained.

 

[BigMotor]

And what about girls? Is Krav Maga useless for them at all? Maybe vice versa, Krav Maga is more applicable for girls because nobody expects any hard struggle from them?

I sparred with a chick in TKD, she was an instructor with a black belt; and her boobs got in her way, and I think that she was self-conscious of it.
It is difficult to spar with an attractive big booby girl, because of distractions, that is what I learned form that.

Krav Maga is unmatched...... when it comes to pretending to fight people who are pretending to attack you

Don't freak, I'm kidding BUT stereotypes do not magically appear out of thin air either.

Ha, ha, ha...funny, in a comical way.

I did an rbsd called scientific fighting Congress which attracted some krav guys and looks like it has similar training ideas.
(A lot of which I don't really like)

I now do mma and its accompanying sub styles which in my opinion is what krav should have been.

And mma has that same loose concept issue. But I find you can trim the system down to its bare bones and at least have a conservative and comprehensive approach.

From there you can go buck wild.

And I find if the art is drill or demo heavy then people feel obligated to have techniques for the sake of how clever they look. Where if the style is resisted training heavy. People go the other way and only do what they feel comfortable with.

That is what I do, I adhere to the KISS principle in fighting; because I don't want to get lost in technique, I want to bust a head.

I don't think that strict definition is at all necessary. BJJ, for instance, has thrived mostly on NOT trying to put borders around the art. It has naturally graduated (in most places) more and more to ground work and few strikes, but that's not a limitation imposed by the nature of the art. In many BJJ gyms, if something works, it's BJJ. Same thing with MMA gyms (to some extent regardless of the base styles they teach, or whether they teach base styles, at all).

Correct, it must work or it is useless, whether it is MMA, or BJJ, or TKD; and I think that people condense things down, to what works for them.
You don't want to go into a fight, and wonder what to do next, because that is a certain way to lose.

A certain way to win, is to think of how to win, and then do it. Punching someone very hard in the face, that is a way to win. And it does not matter what method you prefer to use; as long as you do it. And that move is universal, anyone can do it; and kicking them in the shins, is another universal move, that most people can do. I just imagine breaking their shin with a kick, myself.

A lot of people do not understand what a fight is, but it is a small war; it is not a social gathering. I am speaking of street fights here friends, and not bouts.

 

[Martial D]

well we were discussing female km, so it was a fair assumption that what you were referring to, but ok, what makes you believe that an average female cant strike as hard as an average Male. you will need to state your data points for what makes someone average to do this.

Jobo I never took you for a 3rd wave feminist.

Maybe you and @tez have more in common than you thought!

 

[Tez3]

If we talk reality, stronger muscles are an advantage in any style. Women tend to have weaker muscles (though not in all areas), so will (on average) hit less hard, etc. But any style that works when taught well (and KM is one) will work for a woman when taught/learned well.

You don't always need to hit hard for it to be effective, liver shots for example don't need to be hard to work well. Targeting is a basic key, some areas you can punch hard to and only break your hand others need not much more than a tap to be effective. The other key points of course are training and practice.

BTW I'm not disagreeing with you just using your posts as a jump off for my points.

 

[Tez3]

I sparred with a chick in TKD, she was an instructor with a black belt; and her boobs got in her way, and I think that she was self-conscious of it.
It is difficult to spar with an attractive big booby girl, because of distractions, that is what I learned form that.

Thank you for sharing that with us. Luckily I don't find women attractive in that way and the size of their breasts is irrelevant. Glad you took her seriously though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Everyone with an average level of physicality starts at a disadvantage with martial arts.

It is why strength and fitness is trained.

I think you've entirely missed the point on this one, DB. Tony made it pretty clearly a few posts back.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't always need to hit hard for it to be effective, liver shots for example don't need to be hard to work well. Targeting is a basic key, some areas you can punch hard to and only break your hand others need not much more than a tap to be effective. The other key points of course are training and practice.

BTW I'm not disagreeing with you just using your posts as a jump off for my points.

Agreed. Hitting hard is an extra tool. If you hit harder than me, more targets become useful for more purposes.

 

[Tez3]

Agreed. Hitting hard is an extra tool. If you hit harder than me, more targets become useful for more purposes.

Hitting hard is always going to a 'good thing', but just because you can't hit as hard as another person it doesn't mean you are useless.

 

[Headhunter]

Thank you for sharing that with us. Luckily I don't find women attractive in that way and the size of their breasts is irrelevant. Glad you took her seriously though.

I find women attractive but I tend not to notice things like that when they're trying to punch me in the face. Plus ive got enough maturity to not care about such things

 

[Tez3]

I find women attractive but I tend not to notice things like that when they're trying to punch me in the face. Plus ive got enough maturity to not care about such things

The trick there is having maturity isn't it, I don't find it offensive he mentioned 'boobys' ( though that's very schoolboy'ish, usually accompanied with a hand over the mouth giggle) it's just immature. I've sparred with a great many men ( as well as many great men!) and grappled, awareness of gender goes out of the window when, as you say, they are trying to punch you/arm bar you.

 

[jobo]

Muscular Strength in Women Compared to Men | Livestrong.com

From the article:
Muscle Numbers
Studies have proven again and again that men have a greater amount of skeletal muscle than women. In one such study that examined 468 men and women and was published in a 1985 issue of the “Journal of Applied Physiology,” researchers determined that men had an average of 72.6 pounds of muscle compared to the 46.2 pounds found in women. The men had 40 percent more muscle mass in the upper body and 33 percent more in the lower body.

Strength Translation
Men not only have more muscle, but pound for pound, their muscle is slightly stronger than a woman's -- about 5 to 10 percent, says Lou Schuler in "The New Rules of Lifting for Women." A study reported in a 1993 issue of the "European Journal of Applied Physiology and Occupational Physiology" attributed this strength difference to larger muscle fibers in men.

Back to "average" when talking in generalities without getting into tons of scientific papers done to show where the "average" came from. In the scientific world, when looking at human factors a bell curve has been used. That means that about 70% (68% if you REALLY want to be anal about the details) of the population fall within what has been measured and deemed "average" in the range (+/- 1 standard deviation of the exact middle point). Going further, 95% of the population is 2 standard deviations from the middle point, and 99.7% are 3 standard deviations away. Each of those deviations would also have a range for them. For example, the shortest man is at one extreme of the curve and the tallest man at the other end, they would be more than 3 standard deviations from the middle. So, breaking it down further, you have about 15% of the population that is either taller than the average height range or shorter than the average height range. The same is true of everything else that can be measured in human characteristics.

Now, you can further define your parameters to "test your hypothesis".

Here is a chart prepared using 8.4 million lifts on the bench press (at the bottom of the page you can link to other lifts), breaking it down between male and female, bodyweight and experience levels (beginner/novice/intermediate/advanced/elite. An elite 200 pound female has an average bench press of 253 lbs. A beginner 200 pound male has an average bench press of 138 lbs. An intermediate female has a bench press of 140 lbs.

Bench Press Standards for Men and Women (lb) - Strength Level

it's very simplistic to claim human population conform to bell curves, as generally they dont as theres a lot of societal and environmental factors involved, so for instance height, if 80 % of a population is malnourished that ties strongly to height then your not going to end up with a bell curve for height or if a population is of mixed racial background and one has a genetic tendency towards being taller or carry more muscle mass then your not going to have a bell curve unless the % of each in the population is exactly equal

or if 20% of a population does a hard physical job and the other 80% work in offices then your not going to have a bell curve for strenth

 

[punisher73]

it's very simplistic to claim human population conform to bell curves, as generally they dont as theres a lot of societal and environmental factors involved, so for instance height, if 80 % of a population is malnourished that ties strongly to height then your not going to end up with a bell curve for height or if a population is of mixed racial background and one has a genetic tendency towards being taller or carry more muscle mass then your not going to have a bell curve unless the % of each in the population is exactly equal

or if 20% of a population does a hard physical job and the other 80% work in offices then your not going to have a bell curve for strenth

Once again, you are changing parameters to try and "be right" and find an exception to the rule and don't read for content of posts and the intent of the post. Read the line right after I talked about a bell curve. Now, you can further define your parameters to "test your hypothesis". You are further defining your parameters to account for variances in sub-groups of the human population. Based on your questions, you could now get different test samples to test for the variances and "average" of what you asked about to compare to the larger human population.

 

[jobo]

Once again, you are changing parameters to try and "be right" and find an exception to the rule and don't read for content of posts and the intent of the post. Read the line right after I talked about a bell curve. Now, you can further define your parameters to "test your hypothesis". You are further defining your parameters to account for variances in sub-groups of the human population. Based on your questions, you could now get different test samples to test for the variances and "average" of what you asked about to compare to the larger human population.

well your wrong about human populations conforming to bell curves, there no point reading on and discussing what came after when your whole premise and reasoning is badly flawed

we are talking about the world here, that's about 200 countries and nearly 8 billion people, if you want to break it into sub groups and account for variances to prove your point, then please be my guest ? il look forward to your answer