Krav Maga training effectiveness

[Nadav917]

People keep saying it because it's true.
They do have to use reasonable force, they do have to take people down legally, and it makes perfect sense.

Of course they have to use reasonable force. I never said that if a guy was standing unarmed a cop has the right to kick him in the groin to get him to the ground. I'm saying in a situation where the guy was armed (be it a knife, gun or whatever), and is actively attacking the cop, 'reasonable force' then includes using harsher methods of neutralization (such as KM), and cops at least should be able to handle a situation like that.

 

[Nadav917]

I'm not sure it would ever work outside of a km demonstration film or a movie. You would need to be lightning fast and the gunman as slow as a slug

So what you're actually saying is that 100% of the time if a gun is pointed at you, you're dead, and you shouldn't even bother trying to disarm the attacker?

 

[jobo]

I already said I knew what I wanted a while ago, now I'm just hearing a lot about how I'm not experienced enough to know anything. I never pretended to be an expert on MA, and I'm not hearing any actual replies to my posts as to what alternative MA's there are, rather just a lot of 'KM isn't as effective as you think, I know more because I've done MA for longer'. Apologies if I sound salty now, but this thread turned from asking for advice into a 'why KM isn't actually that great' thread.

km is no better or worse than a lot of arts, it shares the problem with a number of arts that you cant try it full speed/ power until you actually need t, by which time its to late.

a lot of the promo stuff is fantasy

 

[jobo]

So what you're actually saying is that 100% of the time if a gun is pointed at you, you're dead, and you shouldn't even bother trying to disarm the attacker?

no, but it fair to say that if the gun is pointing at you, you have a better chance of living if you do what you are told and don't try nd grab the gun

 

[Nadav917]

km is no better or worse than a lot of arts, it shares the problem with a number of arts that you cant try it full speed/ power until you actually need t, by which time its to late.

a lot of the promo stuff is fantasy

I can accept that answer, and I appreciate you not just bashing on the art. Of course there are flaws with every MA, this entire time I've just been saying that KM appeals more to me. Simply a matter of a opinion, everyone thinks differently.

 

[Headhunter]

By that logic no one should ever train disarming someone ever, because it simply doesn't work. I'm not saying it works 100% of the time, but if even one person has ever prevented a bullet to the face using KM or a similar technique, it's worth learning.

It depends on the person because if you make one tiny mistake you're dead. Personally I find it to risky it's not worth dying over for a small bit of cash or a watch or whatever. Also people don't just train to fight either people just want to learn for example I'm learning bjj I know I'm probably never going to use it in a fight as even if I do get in a fight I wouldn't want to take it to the ground but I do it because it's fun plain and simple

 

[Nadav917]

no, but it fair to say that if the gun is pointing at you, you have a better chance of living if you do what you are told and don't try nd grab the gun

I (or anyone for that matter) would have to be pretty stupid to not listen to a mugger if they had a gun in their face. I don't expect I'll be in a situation like that many times in my life, but when I brought that point up I was actually talking about the police and military forces, which I'm sure encounter more guns to the face than your average citizen.

 

[Paul_D]

Of course they have usual force. I never said that if a guy was standing unarmed a cop has the right to kick him in the groin to get him to the ground. I'm saying in a situation where the guy was armed (be it a knife, gun or whatever), and is actively attacking the cop, 'reasonable force' then includes using harsher methods of neutralization (such as KM), and cops at least should be able to handle a situation like that.

Yes, that's right. The more severe the threat the more severe their "reasonable force" can be. That's why armed police recently shot knife wielding terrorises in London. The severity of the threat meant that deadly force became a reasonable response. However what you said was the the police having to use reasonable force "doesn't make any sense".

 

[Headhunter]

I already said I knew what I wanted a while ago, now I'm just hearing a lot about how I'm not experienced enough to know anything. I never pretended to be an expert on MA, and I'm not hearing any actual replies to my posts as to what alternative MA's there are, rather just a lot of 'KM isn't as effective as you think, I know more because I've done MA for longer'. Apologies if I sound salty now, but this thread turned from asking for advice into a 'why KM isn't actually that great' thread.

No ones said its not great people have been saying about the police and army thing which is just fact.

 

[Nadav917]

Yes, that's right. The more severe the threat the more severe their "reasonable force" can be. That's why armed police recently shot knife wielding terrorises in London. The severity of the threat meant that deadly force became a response response. However what you said was the the police having to use reasonable force "doesn't make any sense".

I can see how what I said came across that way, but what I meant was that it made no sense for officers to ONLY be trained to take down someone with minimal force. If a cop found themselves in a situation where they needed a higher level of reasonable force, and were never given the training to do so, they would be in a pretty bad situation.

 

[Headhunter]

km is no better or worse than a lot of arts, it shares the problem with a number of arts that you cant try it full speed/ power until you actually need t, by which time its to late.

a lot of the promo stuff is fantasy

Agreed it looks cool and probably draws in good business but really no ones going to get in close range with a gun they'll be at a distance so really you have no chance to get to them

 

[Nadav917]

Agreed it looks cool and probably draws in good business but really no ones going to get in close range with a gun they'll be at a distance so really you have no chance to get to them

Fine. Replace that gun with a knife, or stick, or any other close-range weapon that would require a disarming technique similar to that of a gun. Saying 'chances are if someone has a weapon you're screwed anyway' effectively delegitimizes any hand-to-hand disarming technique, which eliminates a pretty big part of self-defense. Better to know how to disarm a guy with a knife or gun and never have to than need to and not know how.

 

[Paul_D]

I can see how what I said came across that way, but what I meant was that it made no sense for officers to ONLY be trained to take down someone with minimal force. If a cop found themselves in a situation where they needed a higher level of reasonable force, and were never given the training to do so, they would be in a pretty bad situation.

Ok, I get what you meant now.

 

[Tez3]

Does that mean that police officers are only trained to take down someone safely and 'legally'

Police officers are trained to take people down effectively.

Are you telling me that if a police officer has a gun pointed at them, that they must still consider the ethical implications of kicking the guy in the groin or gouging out his eyes?

Faced with a gun pointing at you I doubt many people consider eye gouges and groin kicks anyway, neither are as effective as you seem to think they are.

I also don't appreciate your condescension where you assume I'm brainwashed by Hollywood movies to think that a gun-to-the-head situation can be solved with simply twisting it out of the guy's hand, but surely it's better to train KM techniques in disarming someone than just sit back and say 'Oh well it's not as easy to disarm someone as they show in the movies' and just take the bullet, right?

KM is an amalgam of different styles, it is not the only one, as you seem to thin, that has disarms.

Also, you sort of proved yourself wrong in your last point. If it's sometimes considered 'reasonable' to use lethal force, such as in the case of a terrorist attack, then what happened to your argument that KM is not suitable for police work?

You said it in your first sentence.. "Obviously I'm not a police officer," you have serving and retired police officers telling you something but you aren't accepting they know what they are talking about. KM is no more and no less effective than most styles, it isn't special, it's isn't better than everything. It's also only as good as it's trained and taught.

 

[Tez3]

to kick him in the groin to get him to the ground

don't bank on it getting him to the ground, you may just make him angry.

ONLY be trained to take down someone with minimal force.

Reasonable force doesn't mean minimal force. Shooting a terrorist dead is reasonable force if they are on a murderous rampage and may have a suicide vest on. One can use force proportional to the threat, that's reasonable force. You can KO them if necessary that's reasonable, kicking them in the head while they are out isn't reasonable.

 

[Nadav917]

Police officers are trained to take people down effectively.



Faced with a gun pointing at you I doubt many people consider eye gouges and groin kicks anyway, neither are as effective as you seem to think they are.



KM is an amalgam of different styles, it is not the only one, as you seem to thin, that has disarms.



You said it in your first sentence.. "Obviously I'm not a police officer," you have serving and retired police officers telling you something but you aren't accepting they know what they are talking about. KM is no more and no less effective than most styles, it isn't special, it's isn't better than everything. It's also only as good as it's trained and taught.

Never said it was the only one to teach disarms, and never said it was the best out of everything. From the very beginning this thread has been primarily about KM, which is why I keep talking about it. I just brought up the fact that KM has been used in different military and police forces across the world, which is something that can be found out with no policing experience, but rather a quick search on google. I respect the answers given by retired police officers, but you haven't trained as a cop all over the world, so I'm not sure how you can be so certain about the use of it across the entire world, as opposed to just the UK.

 

[Nadav917]

don't bank on it getting him to the ground, you may just make him angry.



Reasonable force doesn't mean minimal force. Shooting a terrorist dead is reasonable force if they are on a murderous rampage and may have a suicide vest on. One can use force proportional to the threat, that's reasonable force. You can KO them if necessary that's reasonable, kicking them in the head while they are out isn't reasonable.

That is precisely what I have been saying all along. If the guy is standing there with his hands up, a cop should not be able to stick his fingers in his eyes to neutralize him. If he was swinging at him with a knife, a cop who is trained in KM would be better off than one who isn't. (Again I only say KM in this case because it is relevant to this threat, I'm not saying another MA wouldn't be effective.)

 

[Headhunter]

Never said it was the only one to teach disarms, and never said it was the best out of everything. From the very beginning this thread has been primarily about KM, which is why I keep talking about it. I just brought up the fact that KM has been used in different military and police forces across the world, which is something that can be found out with no policing experience, but rather a quick search on google. I respect the answers given by retired police officers, but you haven't trained as a cop all over the world, so I'm not sure how you can be so certain about the use of it across the entire world, as opposed to just the UK.

Don't believe everything google tells you

 

[Tez3]

Never said it was the only one to teach disarms, and never said it was the best out of everything. From the very beginning this thread has been primarily about KM, which is why I keep talking about it. I just brought up the fact that KM has been used in different military and police forces across the world, which is something that can be found out with no policing experience, but rather a quick search on google. I respect the answers given by retired police officers, but you haven't trained as a cop all over the world, so I'm not sure how you can be so certain about the use of it across the entire world, as opposed to just the UK.

Ok I googled, no police forces came up and only the IDF came up ( as Israeli police officers are ex military they don't count as being taught KM as police) I've worked with many people from many different countries so have a good idea of what they train. However many KM schools claim that it's taught in far more places than it is, it's a 'selling point'. It's USP isn't, and other styles gyms and schools also use 'special forces/police' as their selling point.
Yes, this thread is about KM but you don't seem to understand that there's many variations of it, thought up by various people, as I keep saying it's only as good as the instructor teaching and only as good as the training, just like any other style.

That is precisely what I have been saying all along. If the guy is standing there with his hands up, a cop should not be able to stick his fingers in his eyes to neutralize him. If he was swinging at him with a knife, a cop who is trained in KM would be better off than one who isn't. (Again I only say KM in this case because it is relevant to this threat, I'm not saying another MA wouldn't be effective.)

Just no, there is not a style in the world that can disarm a knifeman purely using martial arts techniques without the defender being injured sometimes severely. Anyone who teaches you that you can disarm a knife swinging toward you and you not be hurt is lying. Police officers just about everywhere know this ( and one I can think of is an extremely good martial artist, an MMA fighter, as well as a police unarmed combat trainer).
On the recent terrorist knife attack in London various people took on the attackers, one Spanish man went for them with his skateboard, he was killed. Another, a sports journalist who is also a martial artist also went for them and was stabbed in the throat. A police officer used his baton against one and received bad cuts to both arms, others threw chairs and tables at them. The police shot them dead.

I though many of you would like this though.
http://www.independent.co.uk/News/u...ner-football-fan-lion-of-london-a7775246.html

 

[Headhunter]

That is precisely what I have been saying all along. If the guy is standing there with his hands up, a cop should not be able to stick his fingers in his eyes to neutralize him. If he was swinging at him with a knife, a cop who is trained in KM would be better off than one who isn't. (Again I only say KM in this case because it is relevant to this threat, I'm not saying another MA wouldn't be effective.)

Well I'm not police but I've worked on plenty of doors and if I ever eye gouged a guy even if he had a rocket launcher I'd be out of a job and may as well give the guy my house keys with how much he'd sue me for