Korean terminology in your class

[chrismay101]

Shaderon.

We start off with basics e.g. counting and add more for each grading. getting something wrong won't mean fail but it will get marked down and asked at the next grading.

stay chilled out for the grading. good luck

 

[exile]

My instructor doesn't require us to know much Korean technical terminology, though he himself knows it.

For those who think it's essential to use Korean terminology in order to perform the `art'...

This in effect presupposes that `art' entails `indigenous terminology'. If you define `art' as including `instructions/technique descriptions in the "language of origin" ', then by definition you don't have TKD/TSD/Hapkido/etc. unless you use Korean (to whatever degree the definer considers acceptable, which, by the way, could vary quite a bit). By this same logic, if you're cooking a classical French meal with some friends, and don't use the French terms for the cooking techniques, the ingrediants and so on, then the result isn't actually an example of French culinary art, but an American/British/Italian/Czech/whatever dish (depending on the language in which the creators of the meal communicated). The meal itself—what's served on the plate—apparently, isn't sufficient to warrant the description `classic French meat pie' or whatever. You only get that accolade if you used French in the preparation of the meal.

You really believe this???

 

[Last Fearner]

For those who think it's essential to use Korean terminology in order to perform the `art'...

if you're cooking a classical French meal with some friends,....

....You only get that accolade if you used French in the preparation of the meal.

You really believe this???

You are right exile. The use of Korean terminology during class does not effect the techniques, nor the student's ability to perform in class, competition, or in real-life self defense.

However, I do believe that the passing along of an "Art" includes much more than just technical skill. I believe the complete Art of Taekwondo includes the student's knowledge and understanding of history (accepted as well as contested), Korean culture, art, music, and language.

It is partially ambiance and overall "feeling" of studying a Korean Art. Just like when you go to French restaurant, or a Chinese, or Korean Restaurant. The decorations, lighting, music, staff's attire, language on the menu, all set the mood and are part of the whole "package." Although the quality of the food is most important, I would not be interested in eating at a Korean Restaurant that looked like a American Burger joint. Part of what I pay for is the atmosphere.

In addition, there is something to be said for professionalism in using a particular language for those who are trained in a specific career. Lawyers and Judges use Latin terms in their briefs, and in open courtroom arguments. If you are going to be a lawyer, and you don't know a "writ of Habeas corpus" from "Corpus delicti," you are in whole lot of trouble. Many sports, forms of art, and other skills have their own jargon. These terms are unique to that activity, and anyone participating would do well to learn them. Many such terms come from the language of the native country where the skill originated.

Do we have to learn the native language? No. However, I do believe it is worthwhile - - it completes the curriculum, and I wouldn't teach it any other way. Personally, I find it is one effective method of weeding out those impostors who study an eight week "Twi Kahn Dew" course at the "Y," then open their own school, claiming to be a master. There are a lot of things they can fake, and rip off the public, but it will be tough to know much about all of the Korean terms for those Taekwondo moves unless they have really studied (or come here to MT and asked us! )

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[wade]

HEY, COMMON CHIEF MASTER, you are killing me here. I have all these people convinced that I know what I am doing and you bring this up. Damn...........................

BTW, what rank is a Chief Master, we (USAT) don't use that term so I am just curious. You do not have to answer this but so I was just wondering, what organization promoted you to this rank? Is it an international rank or just one in your own organization. You are obviously very educated and learned so like I said, I was just curious.

 

[Shaderon]

Exile and Last are both right I feel, it doesn't make it TaeKwon-Do to know the language, it would be TaeKwon-Do without it but to know the Jargon used in it is important if you want to know what's going on. Like with anything that has a Jargon, if all practitioners of the art use the name name for everything no matter where they come from then we all know what they are talking about.

 

[chrismay101]

How many people learn there patterns as pattern 1. pattern 2. and so on.
Or do you learn Chon-ji, Dan -Gun, Do-San upwards! I don't think speaking korean will make you any better but may put you in the right frame of mind!
It may also remind you what your learning isn't karate, Kung Fu it's Taekwondo you should be proud to learn at least a bit of the terminology! its not that hard!

 

[exile]

How many people learn there patterns as pattern 1. pattern 2. and so on.
Or do you learn Chon-ji, Dan -Gun, Do-San upwards! I don't think speaking korean will make you any better but may put you in the right frame of mind!
It may also remind you what your learning isn't karate, Kung Fu it's Taekwondo you should be proud to learn at least a bit of the terminology! its not that hard!

Chrismay, you may be miscontruing my intent here, or possibly I haven't been clear enough myself. I've no objection to learning the Korean terminology, and I understand that in certain contexts it might have a distinctly practical value (training in Korea during a visit, for example, though under those circumstances a good deal of devoted study would be required, I think to be good enough at in a largely monolingual situation for it to be usefule). I've acquired a certain amount of it and am always trying to retain what I've learned and see if I have the storage capacity for more. My concern here is really with a matter of principle, and bears on the question of what constitutes the essence of a martial art, and more generally, how should one evaluate claims that some particular answer to that question has some kind of priviledged status and must be taken to be the default. This is an issue that goes well beyond Korean terminology for KMAs, well beyond any particular MA in fact.

I've been rereading and rereading the excellents posts that LF, Shaderon and others have made on this issue, and have some ideas bearing on the point, but not coherent enough to frame in a post right now... maybe later, I hope...

 

[chrismay101]

exile sorry re-read my last post seemed a bit in ya face! I don't expect to ever be able to have a coversation its like what Shaderon said you kind need to know the jargon!

 

[wade]

Say Chief Master, I just reread my post and I realized maybe that I was coming on a little strong with my questions about your rank and if so I want to apologize. I'm not questioning it nor your credentials and I didn't mean for it to sound the way it does. I just am actually curious what rank a Chief Master is, that's all. Thanks

 

[mango.man]

Regarding the flag issue brought up by a few in this thread, a wise man once said: "As soon as I see an American flag flying over a baseball game in Seoul, I will put a Korean flag in my Dojang."

Needless to say, we don't speak much Korean in our school of Taekwondo.

 

[Last Fearner]

Say Chief Master, I just reread my post and I realized maybe that I was coming on a little strong with my questions about your rank and if so I want to apologize. I'm not questioning it nor your credentials and I didn't mean for it to sound the way it does. I just am actually curious what rank a Chief Master is, that's all. Thanks

No problem, Wade. I believe I took it the way you meant it. When I came up through the ranks (first in the ATA, then in Jidokwan), I was familiar with the terms: Color Belt (geup), Junior Black (Poom) Belt Black Belt (Dan), Assistant Instructor (jokyonim), Instructor (gyosanim), Master (sabeomnim), and Grandmaster (kwanjangnim). My first Taekwondo instructor and I had split paths for nearly two decades, then I rejoined him in 2000. I was a 5th Dan, Master Instructor (Taekwondo Jidokwan), and he was a 7th Dan. He is now an 8th Dan Grandmaster with the U.S. Chung Do Kwan Association.

The Kwanjangnim and founder of the U.S.C.D.K.A., Edward B. Sell (Kukkiwon 9th Dan), has created his own rank structure for instructor titles. They use the titles of Associate Instructor, Instructor, and Senior Instructor (for those who run their own school). At 4th Dan, an instructor is eligible to become an Associate Master, then a master.

This is the link to the USCDKA page that describes the Master ranks:
http://www.uscdka.com/WhatIsAMaster.aspx

The following is a quote from the page link above

The following titles are earned independently of the rank with specific requirements and prerequisites to achieve them.

MASTER DEGREES
Associate Master ...4th Degree
Master..................4th Degree
Master Instructor...5th Degree
Sr. Master.............6th Degree
Professor..............7th Degree
Grandmaster.........8th Degree
Sr. Grandmaster....9th Degree


In the above list that I copied and pasted here, "Sr. Master" has been changed in recent times to "Chief Master." When I joined the USCDKA in 2000, Sr. Grandmaster Sell checked my background and credentials, and upon the recommendation of my instructor, Grandmaster Smith, certified me as a 5th Degree, but placed me at an "Associate Master" for a probationary period. I tested for an upgrade to "Master" and then to "Master Instructor." In 2005, I tested for 6th Dan, and upgraded my instructor's degree to "Sr. Master" which was later switched to "Chief Master."

This is the link to my USCDKA chartered school.
http://www.uscdka.com/schools.aspx?ID=1948

I hope this answers your question without sounding boastful. :asian:

CM D.J. Eisenhart
__________________
Last Fearner

 

[exile]

exile sorry re-read my last post seemed a bit in ya face! I don't expect to ever be able to have a coversation its like what Shaderon said you kind need to know the jargon!

Chrismay, there's nothing to apologize for, nothing you said was offensive in the least, and I wasn't offended at all. My concern was only that you might have taken what I said as a blanket rejection for the use of Korean in TKD classes, which wasn't my intent. I think even the most enthusiastic advocate of Korean terminology in class would hesitate to ask full conversational ability from students... your average class size would drop down to near zero pretty quickly, in N. America at least! :wink1:

 

[wade]

Ah, got it. Then with the USAT you would be a Senior Master and if I was with your group I would be a Chief Master. Interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me. I'm supposed to test for my 7th in January and I don't mind the senior master title but considering my level of education I don't think I could ever justify being called "Professor".

 

[Shaderon]

Chrismay, there's nothing to apologize for, nothing you said was offensive in the least, and I wasn't offended at all. My concern was only that you might have taken what I said as a blanket rejection for the use of Korean in TKD classes, which wasn't my intent. I think even the most enthusiastic advocate of Korean terminology in class would hesitate to ask full conversational ability from students... your average class size would drop down to near zero pretty quickly, in N. America at least! :wink1:

I agree, I love learning my Korean phrases but even I'd think twice about staying in the art if that demanded full conversation in Korean!

 

[exile]

I agree, I love learning my Korean phrases but even I'd think twice about staying in the art if that demanded full conversation in Korean!

I think even the most ardent advocate of the view that an MA is a component of a national culture and cannot be grasped except in the context of that culture—something I've heard expressed, and which I personally think is an extreme position, but there it is—would find it hard to justify total immersion in Korean as a precondition for learning TKD, TSD, Hapkido or whatever. It would probably lead to a bunch of people saying, `OK, we're not learning art X, we're learning a different art identical in every technical respect, and follows the identical curriculum except it's taught in English (or Italian, or Arabic, or wherever we happen to be). Satisfied?? :shrug:'

The main reason I've always thought it valuable to learn as much of the Korean terminology as possible is that there is so much variability in English terms for the same technique. A lot of times, I come across technical discussions (in English) containing English terms that I've never heard before for certain moves. Sometimes I'm able to google these and find a description of them, and it turns out that I know the intended move well, but under quite a different name. So if Korean could provide a standard lexicon for TKD techniques, it would be great... unfortunately, I've also run across instances where there are multiple terms in Korean for the same move!... Ya can't win fer losin' ...:idunno:

 

[IcemanSK]

Ah, got it. Then with the USAT you would be a Senior Master and if I was with your group I would be a Chief Master. Interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me. I'm supposed to test for my 7th in January and I don't mind the senior master title but considering my level of education I don't think I could ever justify being called "Professor".

Perhaps in the classroom, sir. But in the dojang, (aka "the school of hard knocks") you more than qualify:asian:

 

[terryl965]

Ah, got it. Then with the USAT you would be a Senior Master and if I was with your group I would be a Chief Master. Interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me. I'm supposed to test for my 7th in January and I don't mind the senior master title but considering my level of education I don't think I could ever justify being called "Professor".

Wade you are to humble with all your experience a professor you could be justify

 

[Shaderon]

I think even the most ardent advocate of the view that an MA is a component of a national culture and cannot be grasped except in the context of that culture—something I've heard expressed, and which I personally think is an extreme position, but there it is—would find it hard to justify total immersion in Korean as a precondition for learning TKD, TSD, Hapkido or whatever. It would probably lead to a bunch of people saying, `OK, we're not learning art X, we're learning a different art identical in every technical respect, and follows the identical curriculum except it's taught in English (or Italian, or Arabic, or wherever we happen to be). Satisfied?? :shrug:'

The main reason I've always thought it valuable to learn as much of the Korean terminology as possible is that there is so much variability in English terms for the same technique. A lot of times, I come across technical discussions (in English) containing English terms that I've never heard before for certain moves. Sometimes I'm able to google these and find a description of them, and it turns out that I know the intended move well, but under quite a different name. So if Korean could provide a standard lexicon for TKD techniques, it would be great... unfortunately, I've also run across instances where there are multiple terms in Korean for the same move!... Ya can't win fer losin' ...:idunno:

Kinda what I was trying to say earlier in this thread but I'm not as eloquant as you Exile. I agree that if there was a standard list of technique names it would be SO much simpler... I am thinking of another conversation where we are comparing the names of stances... there's a little confusion where we have to describe the stance in detail because there's a couple similar... and even then it's not completely clear. I guess it's a case of Chinese (Korean) whispers and creative naming though, e.g. One person says "this is the stance which looks like you are sitting on a horse", student A calls it Horse stance and Student B calls it sitting stance... or something like that... who knows? All I know is it's confusing.

 

[exile]

I guess it's a case of Chinese (Korean) whispers and creative naming though, e.g. One person says "this is the stance which looks like you are sitting on a horse", student A calls it Horse stance and Student B calls it sitting stance... or something like that... who knows? All I know is it's confusing.

Right, this has to be the way it happens. The thing is, there's no reason to expect Korean MAists to see the move in exactly the same way for descriptive purposes any more than US or English or Russian MAistst to see it the same way.

What might make sense is a kind of standard internet visual library for each art, with the technique given a numerical label. Then people could, in their descriptions, simply resort to this single label that would point people to the on-line catalogue of TKD/etc. move, if they felt there was any question about what they were talking about. It's the kind of thing that's technologically very feasible but won't happen for a while, probably, because we're all used to a different way of presenting descriptions of movement sequences in the MAs... but one of these days it could very well become the norm.

 

[Shaderon]

I certainly hope so, there is still a lot of people out there who either don't have the internet or only use it for communication purposes, like for emailing and file transfers, once these people catch up *nudges her Sabumnim* then it would be a fantastic idea to have a central database. But who will run it? The KKW? An independant? Probably the first person who thinks of it (race ya Exile) will start one up, but then someone else will... and someone else will.... until there's dozens. Only then can they be whittled down and the most persistant ones will carry on, like with any other information website. The most likely thing in my eyes will be a load of independants as well as each governing body will have thier own, the different descriptions will live on, but at least they'll have pictures with them. iratetyp