Korean karate?

[howard]

Hapkido was developed by Choi, Yong Sul, who lived in Japan as a boy and studied Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu... Choi... combined the techniques learned in Japan with the striking becoming popular in Korea (Tae Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, the 9 kwans, etc) to form Hapkido.

Your comment about the striking techniques that Choi taught is incorrect. Choi never studied any Korean or Japanese art after returning to Korea. The striking techniques he taught are ones that he learned in Japan. Most of Choi's original striking techniques bear little to no resemblance to the striking techniques of the karate-based arts.

It really isn't much of a stretch to say that Hapkido was influenced by Aikido when Hapkido's roots are Japanese.

It certainly is a stretch. It's also a non sequitur. There is no logic to this reasoning.

Following that logic, you might just as well say that hapkido was heavily influenced by sumo, because they both have Japanese roots.

So, I fail to understand what you mean when you say that I posted something without basis.

Because you did.

You said that hapkido is heavily influenced by aikido. Choi's original art, which you can call hapkido, yawara or a couple of other names (he eventually came to call it hapkido), had absolutely no influence from aikido. Choi taught faithfully the art that he learned in Japan, without outside influence and without the addition of techniques from other sources, despite what some say. For example, some maintain that the defenses against clothing grabs and the throws that Choi taught came from judo, and were added by Suh Bok Sub. This is incorrect. Those techniques are present in Daito-ryu, which has defenses against all manner of clothing grabs and an extensive throwing repertoire.

The additions to Choi's art that characterize modern hapkido came from other sources, most notably Kim Moo Wong and Ji Han Jae. But certainly not from aikido.

I'm sorry if this sounds brusque, but I think it's important to refute internet misinformation about hapkido. There's way too much of it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Oh - as a more direct answer for your question........

Tang Soo Do is most heavily influenced by Shotokan

That has been my observation as well.

Tae Kwon Do has a lot of influences, tough to pin down

Not as tough as you might think. Taekwondo is essentially a Shotokan based art, but unlike TSD, has moved away from Shotokan. Kukki Taekwondo has moved substantially away, particularly in the area of sport taekwondo. The sparring rules are designed to make it taekyeon-ish and to differentiate it from sport karate.

Both Chang hon and Kukki taekwondo have developed their own forms, but you can still see the influence of Heian kata in some of them.

Both federations have also changed the uniforms in substantive ways, but
the entire belt and rank system was transmitted to taekwondo via Shotokan.

It is not unreasonable to think of taekwondo as a Korean form of karate, but it is no longer Korean Shotokan.

Hapkido is most heavily influenced by Aikido

No; I must disagree with you.

Aikido and hapkido both claim a common root (Daito Ryu), though Ueshiba's claim is documeted and verifiable while Choi's is difficult to trace due to lack of documentary evidence.

The two share a goodly number of common techniques, but hapkido has a much greater emphasis on strikes and a more developed striking curriculum than Aikido from what I have seen.

Dortiz put it well when he said cousins, though ugly is not the word I would use. Personally, I think of them as step siblings with a common father, different mothers, and different outlooks and aproaches to the same goal.

Daniel

 

[Gordon Nore]

Here's how I look at it...

Takeda taught his Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu to Usheiba, Kano and (perhaps) Choi. His relationship with the latter is not backed by any existing documentation, but I think people who have seen Hapkido as it was taught by Choi (there are video clips of Choi out there) tend to agree that he learned it somewhere.

Usheiba took DRAJ and came up with his expression of the art -- Aikido. Kano took DRAJ and came up with his expression of the art -- Judo. Choi took DRAJ and came up with his expression of the art -- Hapkido, which, in the early days, used the same Kanji as Aikido.

To me it is simply of a matter of a great art, taught by a great teacher to great students who each made something special from it.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Aikido and hapkido both claim a common root (Daito Ryu), though Ueshiba's claim is documeted and verifiable while Choi's is difficult to trace due to lack of documentary evidence.

Stanely Pranin (http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=547) was granted unprecedented access to the Takeda family archives and could find no record of Choi as a student under the name of Choi or the Japanese name he was given when he was relocated to Japan in the early 1900s. To this I would add that much of what Choi claimed occurred during this period has been attributed to him posthumously. I don't know that we even have a clear understanding of what Choi said of his own lineage as so much has been passed on second- and third-hand.

My understanding of Japanese society at the time suggests that it would have been unlikely for Takeda to have taken him on as a student (as some claim), or as ushi deschi, or as adopted son and inheritor of the system -- I've heard all these claims, and they simply are not supported independently. Scott Shaw has speculated that Choi might have been taken on as a servant or houseboy to the Takeda family, which might have made it ok to train with O Sensei.

As I've written above, Choi learned DRAJ somewhere -- we just can't say for sure where.

The two share a goodly number of common techniques, but hapkido has a much greater emphasis on strikes and a more developed striking curriculum than Aikido from what I have seen.

I've often wondered about that. I have a few thoughts... During the time of Japanese occupation, Koreans were allowed to train in Japanese arts, notably Judo and Karate. Choi was something like forty when he returned to Korea. I started Hapkido in my mid thirties and graded for my bb in my mid forties, so I have a passing familiarity with the limitations of the forty year old body. I have trouble picturing Choi suddenly learning and mastering all this kicking and striking.

I suspect a lot of it was brought to him by his students, some of whom, like Ji Han Jae, had some training in Korean arts. My memory is fuzzy on this score, but I believe Ji Han Jae had learned some Korean kicking. There's a lot of defenses from grabs in HKD, which is to be expected of an art that sprang from DRAJ. My teacher has wondered allowed, if that has to do with Choi teaching Koreans who had trained in Judo. Many accounts list Su Bok Sub (sp?), purportedly the owner of a brewery and a second dan in Judo, as Choi's first student. So the Judo guy grabs the Hapkido guy and the Hapkido guy responds.

All speculation, but I do wonder if part of what makes Hapkido is not just DRAJ origins but also the climate in which it was introduced and from whence it sprang.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

From what I have read, Ji Han Jae developed the art into what we would recognize as hapkido, integrating the strikes. It had been commented somewher that Choi simply practiced DRAJ until the end of his life.

I do agree that the environment in which hapkido developed definitely played a part in the shaping of the art.

Daniel

 

[TimoS]

Kano took DRAJ and came up with his expression of the art -- Judo

Getting way off-topic here, but can't be helped. This is the first time I've ever seen the claim, that judo came from Daito ryu. Do you happen to have any references for this claim? I was under the impression that Kano's base art was Tenjin Shinyo ryu.

 

[Jimi]

I can understand if someone believes Mcbuzzys statement that Hapkido is ,for lack of a better term, (BORN) of Aikido is incorrect. Aikido may very well have little to do with Hapkido in a lineage sence.

With so many Korean Arts nowwa days insisting that their art is Korean alone, I see this can be a sensitive issue. From what i can gleam from others posting that Choi may have trained in Daito Ryi Aiki Jutsu and this may be more likely where Choi drew his foundation for Hapkido to be born, my question is, "If DRAJ was used as source for Hapkidos foundation, would'nt it be that a Japanese System helped form Hapkido in principles and techniques?" Chois (A Korean) interpretation of a japanese system, but does that make Hapkido a KOREAN ART BY BIRTH?

Exxegarated example, if an Italian trains in Spainish Fencing in Spain using Toledo Steel and Spaninsh Fencing principle, then returns to Italy founding his own art based (Even in part) on Spanish Fencing, because the founder is Italian, does that make it Italian Fencing? No offense intended to Italians, Spanish , Koreans or Japanese mind you, just trying to understand what others may perceive.

If Daito Ryu Aiki Jutsu is in part FATHER to Hapkido, is Hapkido founded on japanese system principles? Again with many Koreans wanting to identify their systems as Korean alone, would it be unfair to say Hapkido is born of Japanese systems interpreted by a Korean? Would this be a Korean art by relatively recent development?

I certainly would not consider it an Ancient Korean System simply because a Korean formulated it from his experience elsewhere. I would love to see the defensive arts of Korean History as they were before the Korean War and before the Japanese Occupation, these I would trust more than just someones opinion or conjecture .

This may be stirring a hornets nest, but I can understand (NOT ASSERTING) peoples belief that Hapkido is born of Japanese arts influence. This may upset many, but I just had to express my questions of Hapkidos origin and how it was developed.

Can anyone here show me the Korean Arts as they were before Japnese occupational influence? THIS IS NOT A CHALLENGE TO ANYONES SA BOM NIM OR GRANDMASTER OR ASSOCIATIONSS HISTORY SO PLEASE DO NOT TAKE IT AS SUCH, I simply would like to know what can be attributed directly to Korean Culture as Native Art Developement as opposed to Arts Developed by Koreans under Japanese Arts influence.

I hope my questions intent are understood. PEACE JIMI

 

[dortiz]

I think just about every Hapkido practioner I know of is quite familiar with the fact tha Choi brought it back from Japan.
The muddier waters is the continuation as the Koreans added the kicking and other techniques.Either way its no secret and not frowned about.
Everything comes from somehwere, its what you do with it that matters.

Dave O.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Getting way off-topic here, but can't be helped. This is the first time I've ever seen the claim, that judo came from Daito ryu. Do you happen to have any references for this claim? I was under the impression that Kano's base art was Tenjin Shinyo ryu.

No, sir, you're quite right. I had a senior's moment when I was typing. Kano was a JuJitsuka. JuJitsu, no doubt, played a role in the development of Judo, but I incorrectly attributed that to Takeda.

I recall a Judoka and JuJitsuka telling me that Judo was Kano's expression of Budo, and I think that's where I got tripped up.

Thanks for catching that and not having fun at my expense.

 

[xfighter88]

That has been my observation as well.


Not as tough as you might think. Taekwondo is essentially a Shotokan based art, but unlike TSD, has moved away from Shotokan. Kukki Taekwondo has moved substantially away, particularly in the area of sport taekwondo. The sparring rules are designed to make it taekyeon-ish and to differentiate it from sport karate.

Both Chang hon and Kukki taekwondo have developed their own forms, but you can still see the influence of Heian kata in some of them.

Both federations have also changed the uniforms in substantive ways, but
the entire belt and rank system was transmitted to taekwondo via Shotokan.

It is not unreasonable to think of taekwondo as a Korean form of karate, but it is no longer Korean Shotokan.


No; I must disagree with you.

Aikido and hapkido both claim a common root (Daito Ryu), though Ueshiba's claim is documeted and verifiable while Choi's is difficult to trace due to lack of documentary evidence.

The two share a goodly number of common techniques, but hapkido has a much greater emphasis on strikes and a more developed striking curriculum than Aikido from what I have seen.

Dortiz put it well when he said cousins, though ugly is not the word I would use. Personally, I think of them as step siblings with a common father, different mothers, and different outlooks and aproaches to the same goal.

Daniel

From what I have read and experienced hapkido's philosophy is a lot more about...hurting the other guy and injuring him to where he does not want to or can't fight. This is why it incorporates lots of striking as well as joint manipulation. The guy who "founded" Aikido had a much more subdued approach. His goal was to defeat his oponent while causing the least injury possible. They tend to use slaps and distractions to set up takeowns rather than kicking and punching a guys head off to set up the locks.

Don't get me wrong they both could work extremely violently or pacifistically. The difference is in the philosophy of their founders and what kind of mindset gets passed down to the students.

Just my 2 cents. I am not calling aikido folks wimps or tree huggers and I am not saying that all hapkido practitioners are blood thirsty killers. Lastly I am no expert in either of these martial arts I have just read some, I repeat, SOME history of them and know people who practice them.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

When our Kwan Jang Nim came to the U.S. back in the late 1960's his signage out front said "Korean Karate." That sign actually stayed that way through the 1980's. He teaches Moo Duk Kwan (strongly rooted in Japanese Karate), but he says we practice Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. So obviously he was on the split side of the Moo Duk Kwan. We practice all the traditional Japanese forms, although there is a strong emphasis on kicking (especially head kicks). Although unlike many TKD schools, our emphasis is on what Kwan Jang Nim refers to as "Il Kyuk" or One Strike to take out an opponent. This principle, I think, is more of a japanese principle as well (thus deep stances, emphasis on proper technique, waist snap, etc.. .)

 

[xfighter88]

In the US when martial arts places put Karate in their name They are doing it to catch people's attention (excluding actual Karate schools). Most everyone has heard of Karate. Taekwondo is starting to be almost as recognized but I would say that Karate still is king when it comes to name recognition.

I got started at a place that had Karate in the name. The head instructor there has an 8th degree BB in TKD and 2nd degree BB in Judo and Jiu-Jitsu. So Zero karate training but it is in the dojo name. I understand the marketing thought behind it but I am not a huge fan of it.