Korean Karate Master?
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Oyama was Korean born, but was definitely Japanese bred. There's a lot of discussion/argument about this. He went to Japan to be a fighter pilot, considered himself Japanese, and kept his Karate Japanese. The training he received as a child wasn't very formal, and no one is positive what he learned. There has been a lot of guessing. He was proud to have been born Korean, but always considered Japan home. Issues of identity are interesting, and they are very difficult to deal with.
I'm a Korean born adoptee who grew up doing Okinawan Karate in the US and is now living in Korea doing Japanese Karate (Kyokushin) and practicing my own Isshinryu Karate privately. It creates a lot of questions among older Korean people about why I don't do a Korean martial art, because my blood is Korean. It can make life interesting haha.
You could look on a few other forums, the argument about Oyama's Koreanness has been discussed a lot. You could probably Google it, and find quite a lot written about it. If you're interested that is. I myself consider Oyama and his Karate to be Japanese, because while he was Korean born, and loved Korea, he still called Japan home and felt it was his rightful place.
I'm a Korean born adoptee who grew up doing Okinawan Karate in the US and is now living in Korea doing Japanese Karate (Kyokushin) and practicing my own Isshinryu Karate privately. It creates a lot of questions among older Korean people about why I don't do a Korean martial art, because my blood is Korean. It can make life interesting haha.
You could look on a few other forums, the argument about Oyama's Koreanness has been discussed a lot. You could probably Google it, and find quite a lot written about it. If you're interested that is. I myself consider Oyama and his Karate to be Japanese, because while he was Korean born, and loved Korea, he still called Japan home and felt it was his rightful place.
dancingalone
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General Choi asked Oyama to move to Korea and accept a huge role as the face of Choi's nationalistic tae kwon do. Oyama ultimately refused the opportunity, and this was no small statement of his commitment to the Japanese culture instead. He could have become something like a Chuck Norris or a Bruce Lee in Korea's national consciousness if he had partnered with General Choi.
Omar B
Senior Master
Can you imagine the art that would have resulted from Oyama teaching Choi's TKD? It would look quite different today, less kicks maybe, less hopping, more brutal. I'm glad he stayed Japanese.
It was definitely a statement on his commitment to Japan, but I wonder if their personalities could have meshed. They were both big personalities, and I'm betting both liked being top dog. General Choi invited Oyama to join HIM, not the other way around. I'm betting in that situation, Oyama would have had to play second fiddle, not something he would be willing to do. Especially after all the work he put in to be regarded as such a great fighter. His reputation remains today, and some of the crazier stories (bull killing anyone?) are still around and still believed by many. Not just that, but with the politics in Taekwondo already getting sticky, I wonder if Oyama would have remained as important as he is today. Kyokushin, from what I understand, is among the more popular styles of Karate outside the United States.
All that is pure speculation of course, but I definitely agree that Oyama made the right decision for himself, and for his martial art by staying in Japan.
@Omar B.: I don't know how much things would have changed. Kyokushin has a lot of very athletic kicks in it. They had the wheel kick, their sacrifice kicks require a lot of athleticism. If he had decided to move his style to Korea, he likely would have lost the Goju-ryu kata, and the kobudo. From what I understand most Kyokushin schools have taken the kobudo out already. It would look different, but I don't know if the fighting would have changed. The only real difference in rules way back then was that the Korean fighters wore bogu, the Kyokushin fighters did not. Both styles still concentrated on knockout techniques. The soft hogu and electronic scoring are what really changed Taekwondo. At least, that's what I've been told.
All that is pure speculation of course, but I definitely agree that Oyama made the right decision for himself, and for his martial art by staying in Japan.
@Omar B.: I don't know how much things would have changed. Kyokushin has a lot of very athletic kicks in it. They had the wheel kick, their sacrifice kicks require a lot of athleticism. If he had decided to move his style to Korea, he likely would have lost the Goju-ryu kata, and the kobudo. From what I understand most Kyokushin schools have taken the kobudo out already. It would look different, but I don't know if the fighting would have changed. The only real difference in rules way back then was that the Korean fighters wore bogu, the Kyokushin fighters did not. Both styles still concentrated on knockout techniques. The soft hogu and electronic scoring are what really changed Taekwondo. At least, that's what I've been told.
Omar B
Senior Master
I'm pretty sure you guys have seen this but It's worth posting again.
I find it funny.
I find it funny.
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Not sure when TKD instituted hogu, but Choi's TKD and to my knowledge, modern ITF rules as well, do not make use of bogu. I don't think that the WTF instituted it until some time in the seventies, possibly eighties, as part of making the 'game' more olympic friendly. My early experiences with taekwondo were hogu-less.
For a long time, taekwondo practitioners competed primarily in karate tournaments like everyone else.
Daniel
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OldKarateGuy
Green Belt
Perhaps off-topic, but this is a video compilation of a series of Kyokushin-kai knock-outs with kicks. Almost every kick is represented, and it's very instructive.
http://www.youtube.com/user/3rdDan4Life#p/f/27/a5aMtvFBETA
Does anyone know why kyokushin does not allow head punches? Someone told me that Oyama thought such were ineffectual. Can that be correct?
http://www.youtube.com/user/3rdDan4Life#p/f/27/a5aMtvFBETA
Does anyone know why kyokushin does not allow head punches? Someone told me that Oyama thought such were ineffectual. Can that be correct?
Manny
Senior Master
Back in the 80's we at Ji Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do only use (if wanted) shin pads and that's all, and back in those days the name of the MA was Korean Karate, Tae Kwon Do was new name that not every one knew those days so tht's the way to get the regular people on it.
Yes, in tournaments we used hogus, the cup protector and the shin pads but that was by regulation but in the dojangs as I said only whin pads.
The hogu,helmet,forearm pads, the gloves and the mouth protector was because the olimpic comitee dictates that.
In ITF TKD they use the cup, gloves and boots and that's all.
Manny
Ok, now I'm wondering, when were bogu used? I know I've seen photos of Park Dong Geun before he was a kwanjangnim in competition in the mid-1960s wearing one. The soft hogu, I have no idea when that was developed.
As far as the ITF, you're absolutely correct, they don't use hogu, and didn't use bogu, which actually closes the gap between Kyokushin sparring and ITF sparring even more. Oyama visited Korea in 1967 correct? That's the date I've seen given on a few websites. Verification on that would be great.
As far as face punching in Kyokushin, I've heard a ton of different reasons for it not being included. I don't think Oyama believed it was ineffective. If anything, he may have thought it was too effective. A lot of matches that included bare knuckle face punching probably ended very quickly, with a lot of blood, and weren't useful for keeping competitions going. If they didn't end that way, they were probably pretty boring, with both fighters staying away for a lot of the time, moving in to throw a single technique, and then backing back out. The possibility of hurting your hand, especially cutting it on someone's tooth is also very real. Just a guess, but those things were probably taken into account. You still get pretty brutal matches, and as the video shows, great knockouts, without face punching.
As far as the ITF, you're absolutely correct, they don't use hogu, and didn't use bogu, which actually closes the gap between Kyokushin sparring and ITF sparring even more. Oyama visited Korea in 1967 correct? That's the date I've seen given on a few websites. Verification on that would be great.
As far as face punching in Kyokushin, I've heard a ton of different reasons for it not being included. I don't think Oyama believed it was ineffective. If anything, he may have thought it was too effective. A lot of matches that included bare knuckle face punching probably ended very quickly, with a lot of blood, and weren't useful for keeping competitions going. If they didn't end that way, they were probably pretty boring, with both fighters staying away for a lot of the time, moving in to throw a single technique, and then backing back out. The possibility of hurting your hand, especially cutting it on someone's tooth is also very real. Just a guess, but those things were probably taken into account. You still get pretty brutal matches, and as the video shows, great knockouts, without face punching.
My guess is not that he thought that it was ieffectual, but more that he wanted to differentiate Kyokushin tournaments from other tournaments. The WTF restricts punches to the torso and promotes high kicks specifically to differentiate their tournaments from the karate tournaments of the day.
Daniel
Eighties sounds about right. That was when the movement towards olympic inclusion was gaining momentum and also when martial arts began being marketed as fitness alternatives and as family friendly activities. Prior to that, there was not any inclination to wear it. I do not believe that any tournaments mandated hogo prior to the eighties (I could be mistaken) and most definitely not in the late sixties. I am not sure that it even existed commercially until the eighties.
Daniel
dancingalone
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During the sixties, no small type gloves existed like the MMA gloves available now. You could either use the boxing gloves which are heavy and inevitably alter punching technique to the detriment of the classical karate thrust or you could go without protective hand gear entirely which is obviously a no-go from a safety standpoint (and likely a legal one too).
IMO that is why kyokushin has no head punches. They wanted to keep the style of punching karate-based but obviously needed to address some safety concerns.
Omar B
Senior Master
He had a high drop out rate because people didn't want to show up to work with black eyes. He also wanted to maintain the bare knuckle approach.
Martin h
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Oyama once killed a man with one punch to the head (a court of law found him to have acted in self defense, as the guy pulled a knife and was known to be willing to use it, so he got off scot-free) -so I kind of doubt he believed punches to the head was ineffective.
Possibly the reverse.
The reasons headpunches was not allowed was a combination of:
1. High injury and dropout rates during training. Dental surgery back in those days was not what it is today.
2. Estimated low numbers of fighters entering tournaments (you could say that the 1st world tournament with its 128 fighters would realy have been a elimination tournament.
By the final you would not look pretty.
3. (maybe most important) Laws in Japan at the time set in place to stop bare knuckle boxing. "No headpunches" neatly bypassed those laws.
4. Oyama believed the big heavy boxing gloves of the day (there was no small mma gloves available) changed punching and blocking fundamentally.
Maiden_Ante
Yellow Belt
Sigh. Nationality, nationality. It shouldn't limit what martial art you do, or your interests.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
It is amazing that people will make a fuss over a Korean being a karate master but know one cares that a white guy isn't learning European fencing or boxing.
Maiden_Ante
Yellow Belt
Agreed! I've lately found myself thinking about the Taijing symbol when trying to define the meaning of my actions. I do think the people here make good arguments however, not getting glued to one or another fundamental view of what "belongs to whom".
The first hogu were brought to Korea from Japan during an exchange trip in January 1961. The Korean Team brought back four hogu back to Korea. Soon thereafter, hogu became mandatory equipment at all KTA tournaments in Korea, along with shin and forearm guards, and cups. The AAU (predecessor to the USTU) required the use of hogu from the very first US National Taekwondo Championships held in 1975. Head gear became mandatory in 1986 for USTU and WTF, after a competitor in Florida fell during a tournament, hit his head, and subsequently died.
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