miguksaram
Master of Arts
They did this because the general public didn't know what Taekwondo was. They knew, or at least heard of, karate. General public did not make any connection to sports back then.
BTW...how is your history research going?
Kong Soo Do
- Thread starter puunui
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They did this because the general public didn't know what Taekwondo was. They knew, or at least heard of, karate. General public did not make any connection to sports back then.
BTW...how is your history research going?
According to this source, the names for the modern forms of karate-do "Empty Hand Way" and "China Hand Way" originated in Okinawa. They did not originate in Japan or Korea.
http://seinenkai.com/
Tang Soo Do and Kong Soo Do are Okinawan in origin. They came to Korea via Japan.
http://seinenkai.com/
Tang Soo Do and Kong Soo Do are Okinawan in origin. They came to Korea via Japan.
Absolutely. Much is dependent on the situation. I'm not a lawyer so take this with a few grains of salt (and tequila, and lime...LOL)
Common-law self-defense is typically focused around the AOJ triad. Did the person have the Ability to seriously injure me? The Opportunity to seriously injury me? Am I in Jeopardy? (meaning....is the attack imminent?)
Two guys scrapping with each other does not necessarily satisfy the AOJ triad. Sometimes its better to be a good witness than to be a good Samaritan.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
.......Do you prescribe to any of the methods such as Paul Vulnak's PFS or the RMCAT or CRT? Or do you mostly run predetermined scenarios such as "grab my wrist like this" or "punch towards like that"?...
quote]
Not directed to me but FWIW I liked Peyton Quinns books so I went to RMCAT. Liked that to. Have to say my "Traditional training" did not fail me. Loved going full blast on the padded assailants.
I was surprised that one said he had only been hurt once while doing it
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
I don't know...does anyone have any stories of high level black belts in (any) art getting their **** handed to them by a street fighter/ex-felon/determined attacker/someone that isn't as 'well trained' but really good with a few street proven movements? Or do the high level black belts always win the day?
I teach TKD and Ju Jitsu at a local Park District. Hosted a couple PPCT courses and some LEOs attended. Some of the LEOs also worked security for the park.
There was also a Sytema class at the Park district. The LEOS did not like the guy becuase he would say stuff like this is how you use a knife against someone like a cop wearing a bullet proof vest. They would train with weapons like trenching shovels. As the story goes this guy had some issue with (as far as I know ) unknown people and asked a buddy of his to accompany him to some meeting or confrontation.
The police found both of them dead. One was beaten to death. I think the other also had some stab wounds. There were hints of "Russian Mob" involvement.
Pepper spray got the upper hand against a Canadian 5th degree BB trying to stop a robbery:
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Pepper+spray+takes+black+belt/4737526/story.html#ixzz1Lbke8i4P
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Pepper+spray+takes+black+belt/4737526/story.html#ixzz1Lbke8i4P
Mig, you're missing the point. My comment was;
Your question was;
I responded with;
My point being that some Dojangs perpetuate a historical myth for the sake of commercialism. A prospective student is more likely to read the flyer on the door than he/she is to delve into a historical treatise on TKD. Many websites perpetuate the same thing so again, a prospective student is more likely to read the website of the school and go no further. TSD in our area has done this as well. And it is a shame because there is not a problem with the truth i.e. TKD/TSD being decades old rather than centuries. It does not take away from these arts and should not be put forth by some as if it does 'enhance' the art.
I know your spouse is Korean, and it seems sometimes you take it personally when anyone casts doubts (or simply says it like it is) on the practices of SOME Koreans...and many non-Koreans. I assure you that this is not meant to indict the entire culture and should not be taken that way. I know Koreans (and others from that part of the world) that are wonderful, hospitable, honest etc. The actions of a few trying to 'enhance' a particular art do not reflect on everyone. Just wanted to clarify this with you because we've had many excellent discussions and I'd like to see that continue.
I would be happy to discuss this with you. For starters, if you're interested, you can take a look at my section, 'Reality Check'. This has some information in it that touches on the training.
In short, we train;
Your question was;
I responded with;
My point being that some Dojangs perpetuate a historical myth for the sake of commercialism. A prospective student is more likely to read the flyer on the door than he/she is to delve into a historical treatise on TKD. Many websites perpetuate the same thing so again, a prospective student is more likely to read the website of the school and go no further. TSD in our area has done this as well. And it is a shame because there is not a problem with the truth i.e. TKD/TSD being decades old rather than centuries. It does not take away from these arts and should not be put forth by some as if it does 'enhance' the art.
I know your spouse is Korean, and it seems sometimes you take it personally when anyone casts doubts (or simply says it like it is) on the practices of SOME Koreans...and many non-Koreans. I assure you that this is not meant to indict the entire culture and should not be taken that way. I know Koreans (and others from that part of the world) that are wonderful, hospitable, honest etc. The actions of a few trying to 'enhance' a particular art do not reflect on everyone. Just wanted to clarify this with you because we've had many excellent discussions and I'd like to see that continue.
I would be happy to discuss this with you. For starters, if you're interested, you can take a look at my section, 'Reality Check'. This has some information in it that touches on the training.
In short, we train;
- In as many different environments as possible i.e. full light, dim light, asphalt, grass, sand, sloping surfaces, stairs, elevators, between cars, with furniture, inside a vehicle, from standing, from grappling, from the ground, single and multiple opponents, improvised weapons etc.
- We use specific drills that we feel have a high percentage of success.
- We pad up such as RED MAN or Bluers suit (can't remember the name off-hand) and go as full tilt as is safety possible.
- We use specific scenarios that have happened in real life i.e. home invasion, mugging at the ATM etc.
Thank you. I've read this quite a will ago but could not remember the particulars. Worth a re-read
Shoot I wrote a long post about this, but I guess it didn't get posted. I'll try again.
I spoke with Charles Goodin Sensei, who runs the webpage above. Nice guy, I can speak to him about the martial arts all day everyday for the rest of my life. We are pretty much on the same page as far as research goes. Same methodology, same basic approach. He was very happy to learn that I plan on adding to the collection he donated to the UH library with my own excessive library of materials when I pass away.
Anyway, we talked about the article. First thing is this meeting happened in 1936, one year after Funakoshi Sensei wrote and published his book Karatedo Kyokan. The meeting itself was a reaction to Funakoshi Sensei's changing of the characters from toudejutsu to Karatedo. It was a "Hey, this is what is going on in Japan, so better get on the bandwagon." type of thing. If you notice, none of the Japan Karate pioneers are present, other than Motobu Sensei.
Goodin Sensei said that the Okinawan instructors at the time took offense at the idea of appending the Do to the art name. He said that Do was a Japanese concept, and that use of the character and the changing of the name was a sellout to Japan. The Okinawan instructors felt that Toudejutsu, which was often shortened to Toude or simply Te, was Okinawan and more akin to Chinese ideas of the martial arts, not Japanese samurai ideas.
So they didn't really want to do it.
As for this: Chomo Hanashiro: In my old notebooks, I found using the kanji (= Chinese character), "Empty Hand" for karate. Since August 1905, I have been using the kanji "Empty Hand" for karate, such as "Karate Kumite."
Goodin Sensei said some interesting things. He said that the term "karate", meaning empty hand, was already in use in Japan, but it was not attached to any particular art. Instead, it was a term used to describe empty handed techniques. For example, in Kenjutsu, if someone grabs the scabbard of your sword, there are defenses to that. This would be generically called "karate" techniques or empty handed techniques. This use of the term karate had no affiliation to any Okinawan martial art. It is Gooden Sensei's belief that is what Hanashiro Sensei was talking about when he said he was using the term "empty hand" for sparring and the like, because there were books published in japan around 1905 about Karate (empty handed techniques). That is what Hanashiro Sensei is talking about.
At the same time, Japan back in the 1920's and 1930's (like today) had a preoccupation with western sports such as baseball and also western boxing. The Japanese loved babe ruth for example, and would follow his exploits and such. This affinity with competition sports lead the Japanese government to send Judo's Kano Sensei to join the Olympic movement.
Goodin Sensei believes that these two factors greatly influenced Funakoshi Sensei in choosing the name Karatedo as well as his efforts to mirror and follow Judo's roadmap to success so to speak. At the time, there was no Japanese equivalent for Boxing. There was an equivalent for western fencing (kendo) and greco roman wrestling (Judo), but none for Boxing. So as a marketing plan, the name Karatedo was chosen for its familiarity from the Japanese perspective and also as the Japanese empty handed punch equivalent to western boxing. Hence the name, Empty Hand.
Regarding Jujitsu, he said that would be considered an "empty hand" technique or Karate technique from the early 20th Century japanese perspective.
As for this statement: "I think the name "Karate-Do" is better than just "Karate." However, I will reserve decision on this matter, as I think we should hear other people's opinions. We had a controversy on this matter at the meeting of Okinawa Branch of Dai Nippon Butokukai. We shelved this controversial problem. In the mean time, we, members of Okinawa Branch, use the name "Karate-Do" written in Kanji as "The Way of Chinese Hand."
I would like to read the original description in kanji because it seems that there is an inconsistency in the use of the term, because on one hand it states that the Okinawa Branch of the Butokukai had a "controversy" on the matter of using the Do term, and "shelved this controversial problem" but then it goes on to say "we, members of the Okinawa Branch, use the name Karate-do". So it is not clear from this translation what they are talking about. It would make more sense if it said that "in the meantime, we members of the Okinawa Branch, use the name "Karate" or even "Karatejutsu"....
But even if the Okinawa Branch of the Butokukai did use the name Chinese Hand Way, it did not influence GM LEE Won Kuk in selecting that name for his art. I specifically asked him where he got the name from, and he stated it was his idea. When I asked him if they used the name Karatedo (Tang Soo Do) in Japan, he said no one used that name, that when Funakoshi Sensei changed to Empty Hand, he also change the suffix to Do, so the name went from Toudejutsu (Tangsoosool) to Karatedo (Kong Soo Do). So there is no connection between the name mentioned at the 1936 meeting and what GM LEE Won Kuk did in Korea.
Let's hope this one goes through. I don't want to have to type this all over again.
PS: During our conversation, Goodin Sensei gave me the name and number of a martial arts scholar that lives on the same island that we do. He said that compared to this person, he is like a 3rd grader and this person is a Ph.D. Feels like one of those "when the student is ready, the master will appear" type scenarios for me, which is good because I have been feeling stagnated lately. So thank you Maunakumu, if it weren't for your posting, I wouldn't have lucked into an introduction and referral to a martial arts historical treasure chest like I did. Please feel free to contradict and/or challenge me at any time, because who knows where it will lead me next. I knew there was a reason I felt like I was supposed to post on MT, just didn't know why until now....
I knew there was a reason I felt like I was supposed to post on MT, just didn't know why until now....I learned many of these things in taekwondo as well, though they were culled from hapkido.
You stated (I think) that you use the term 'Kong Su Do' to differentiate yourself from modern TKD. I am going to ask the following, and if they have been answered previously, my apologies, but many of the posts in this thread are just way too long, no offense, and I'm not going to hunt through manifold threads to search it out.
1. What forms do you use?
2. How thorough is your hoshinsul (SD) and where does it come from? A follow up, is it primarily striking based or does it more resemble HKD?
3. What is the nature of your sparring?
4. Aside from sparring (which really does not equate to SD), how does your system train students for self defense? (realistic scenarios, role playing, etc.)
Thank you in advance for your answers.
Regarding the name, way of the empty hand, you could pretty much do anything you feel like without a weapon and the name would fit. As for the historical reasons being discussed, I leave that to more educated minds with regards to the subject than my own.
Daniel
You might look at that way, but personally, I don't think a flyer stating that something is 2000 years old would be the deal maker for me, even if I were a newbie or his/her parent looking for a school to join for the first time. No one really reads those flyers.
As for the centuries old thing, we discussed this previously and I believe there is a misunderstanding, a cultural misunderstanding that is going on. When I see someone write "Taekwondo is 2000 years old", how I interpret that is that the cultural affinity for the Korean people for kicking goes back that long. Kicking is what defines Taekwondo, and to a certain degree, Korean culture has evidence of this through Taekkyon (a Korean kicking game) and also also things such as that drum dance in which a person with a very long streamer on his hat twirls around in a large circle around the musicians and does roundhouse spin hooks kicks all the way around. i don't know if you know what I am talking about but if you ever visit Korea, which I believe all Korean Martial Arts practitioners should do at least once in their lives, you will see it demonstrated at the Folk Village. No one questions that Kicking is the Korean Martial Arts' unique feature, and no one questions that Taekwondo has evolved away from its Okinawan/Japanese Karate roots. However, I don't see why there is such a fuss if it is stated that the kicking part of Taekwondo was inspired by or came from Korean culture which is thousands of years old.
I think a more obvious point would be to look at the numbers of students who are filling Taekwondo schools, in comparison to those heading to a sparsely populated "hard core" self defense program. Even MT describes Taekwondo as the fastest growing martial art (or words to that effect). Obviously, Taekwondo instructors must be doing something right and giving the public what they want, even if it is the opinion of Kong Soo Do the students in Taekwondo schools cannot defend themselves. The "self defense" box on the student initial sign up questionnaire just may be the least checked box in the majority of today's martial arts schools, at least the financially successful ones.
Thanks for this. The library has some information on the Korean branches of karate, but it's pretty sparse compared to the information on other things. Ultimately, I think your addition could bring a lot of clarity to the evolution of "Korean" karate.
Thanks for your careful post about your conversation. It brings up the sticky point about usage of various terms in the past. The context makes all of the difference when it comes to understanding. It sounds like the Japanese and Okinawans at the time had a broader vision of "empty hand" meant. This actually helps clarify the connection between Dan Zan Ryu (a system in which I cross train) and karate. Okazaki Sensei would have seen no distinction between jujutsu, karate, and quanfa that he was learning in Hawaii at the turn of the last century.
I don't know if such a strong statement could be made regarding the usage of TSD. I think that at the time that LWK trained in Japan, there was a lot of discussion about what to call the art and the matter certainly wasn't settled when Funakoshi wrote his book. When there is no distinctive break in usage, it's easy to get confused when pinned into a definitive statement. I'd like to see the original character's as well. Next time I visit the library, I'll see what I can find.
PS: During our conversation, Goodin Sensei gave me the name and number of a martial arts scholar that lives on the same island that we do. He said that compared to this person, he is like a 3rd grader and this person is a Ph.D. Feels like one of those "when the student is ready, the master will appear" type scenarios for me, which is good because I have been feeling stagnated lately. So thank you Maunakumu, if it weren't for your posting, I wouldn't have lucked into an introduction and referral to a martial arts historical treasure chest like I did. Please feel free to contradict and/or challenge me at any time, because who knows where it will lead me next.
No problem and you're welcome. PM me if you'd ever like to share a cup of coffee or punch me or both!
Now of course I'm still going to teach the way I've always taught, and list my research the way I have, and use the name Kong Soo Do as I have been....but I'm now a much better martial artist for having been on this merry-go-round with you.
I have no doubt that you will teach the same way that you've always taught, that you will list your "research" the way you have and will continue to the same things as you always have, just like your new PM buddies do. If they are supporting and reassuring you, then no doubt that their approach to the martial arts and to life is substantially similar to your approach. We are defined by the friends that we keep, birds of a feather, and so forth. And sorry you didn't get anything out of the discussion, but I certainly have, thanks to Maunakumu. There he was trying to hurt me, and instead ended up helping me. I expect to be off on a whole new learning experience very shortly.
That's ok. Go hang out with Kong Soo Do. I think you and he have more in common than you and I.
I have Master Woo's book, "Kong Su". Two copies actually, one with and one without the dust jacket. The pictures look very generic and you cannot tell which Kwan he is from.
UH has to wait though. I plan on living at least another 40 years. Perhaps we won't have any books by then. It may be all ipad and kindle at that point.
Thank you Daniel,
1. For me personally, I like Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseiryu as well as the Pinan series. The only one of these that I practice anymore (as a form) is Sanchin. It was my first and therefore just has a special place for me. The others are utilized for their bunkai.
It is not what I teach to students though (well, Sanchin I do...it is great for focus, conditioning etc). Over the years we developed a single form that covers 25 movements. These movements are a 'skeleton' of principles that cover common forms of attack (both empty hand and weapon defense). We then tailor the form to each student based upon their particular strengths and/or physical limitations.
2. For me personally it comes from multiple sources. First, from the arts I have trained in. Secondly, from the combatives or defensive tactics course I have earned an instructors rating. Thirdly, from other HL professionals that I have had the opportunity to train with and lastly from real world altercations. If I wouldn't use it personally, I don't teach it.
TKDish or HKDish? That answer would depend on the background of the particular TKD'er or HKD'er. We believe (when appropriate) that a strike should precede the attempt to lock, throw etc. By strike I mean it could be a 'stun' or it could be meant to cause damage. Again, as appropriate to the situation. The follow up depends on position and individual strengths. For example, I personally use joint locks in a major way, usually finger, wrist or elbow (into the shoulder and beyond of course). Joint locking for me is just natural as I've used it so often over the last three decades. I cannot recall ever kicking a person. But multiple times I've knee spiked people. As far as strikes, I have hardly ever used closed hands (for specific reasons), instead I prefer palm heel or edge-of-hand strikes (and forearms).
3 & 4.. We don't spar in the conventional sense. When we pad up we are in a scenario setting. The scenario isn't over until the attack has ceased (by whatever means is appropriate). So it isn't so much moving back and forth looking for an opening (such as in a boxing match or competition) but rather trying to deesculate, looking for cover/concealment, looking to disengage, looking for improvised weapons, looking for danger cues, nuetralizing the attack as quickly as possible etc. All as would be appropriate to the situation i.e. car-jacking, mugging at the ATM, attacked while jogging or answering your door etc.
Firearms training is also covered extensively.
http://excoboard.com/martialwarrior/148268
The link is to my teeny-tiny board. It is just a place for some of us to gather and talk (although anyone is welcome). The link above is specifically to my section, 'Reality Check' where I put my thoughts for anyone that may be interested. It is by no means complete, but I add to it as I'm able. We also have an SD section there as well with information that we utilize.
I hope this was helpful?
