Knuckles

[Zero]

Hi, here's a link I previously posted in karate but to no avail, and I guess as some of my question focuses in part on wc punching techniques, then the practioners on this part of the site may be able to help and illuminate me.

Don't take this the wrong way or as insult, I have taken many good things from wc for my own fighting such as centre line awareness and strike evasion but I have been quesitoning the modern application and success/appropriatenesss of strikes such as palm strikes, finger jab/strikes and of course punching with the lower/smaller knuckles rather than the larger top two knuckles.

Original thread:

When punching I have been trained to make the strike point the larger two (or largest one) knuckle(s) also if fighting without gloves or in an SD situation.

When I spent a couple of years studying wing chun alongside karate a while back the focus, as most will know, is on striking with the lower 2 or 3 knuckles in a more upward blow. And of course, also in my karate training we do spend time on hand edge/knife hand strikes such as haito or shuto uchi, finger strikes etc. My question, or pondering is, aside from a finger rake/gouge to eyes in SD or a knife hand strike to the neck for a carotid/jugular blow or osophagus break, is there really any use in the smaller knuckle or finger tip strikes?

In full contact competition I have always used the larger knuckles and the times I have been in street fights and aSD situations I have never used the smaller knuckles or these finger soft tissue attacks. So what's the gig? Can anyone give some feedback with experience on their effectiveness or from years of training? Again, I'm not questioning the effectiveness of eye strikes, but on the ability of lower knuckle or finger/claw hand strikes to the body or harder regions of the anatomy. Yes, I agree from dojo training that these strikes can hurt like hell but do we really need them when if in a full on fight I can use a fist with the upper knuckles to most areas or a hand strike/blow to the neck or upwards into the nose (or eye attacks with fingers)??

And if so what is the wing chun slant? Okay, I only did it for 2 years but in comparing the impact of the standard punch to the lower knuckle one and the added safety for one's own fist in avoiding any broken knuckles I would have to go for the large knuckles all the way.

Has the lower knuckle punch and these palm and finger strikes become redundant because modern fighters and people in general are more muscular with stronger physiologies than in the past?? Not sure about that one.

Any feedback out there??

 

[KamonGuy2]

Most wing chun schools say to use the bottom three knuckles which I have tried with limited success. So I switched (after my current Master's advice) to using the whole hand. This is much more devastating

 

[geezer]

Hi, here's a link I previously posted in karate but to no avail, and I guess as some of my question focuses in part on wc punching techniques, then the practioners on this part of the site may be able to help and illuminate me.

Don't take this the wrong way or as insult, I have taken many good things from wc for my own fighting such as centre line awareness and strike evasion but I have been quesitoning the modern application and success/appropriatenesss of strikes such as palm strikes, finger jab/strikes and of course punching with the lower/smaller knuckles rather than the larger top two knuckles.

Original thread:

When punching I have been trained to make the strike point the larger two (or largest one) knuckle(s) also if fighting without gloves or in an SD situation.

When I spent a couple of years studying wing chun alongside karate a while back the focus, as most will know, is on striking with the lower 2 or 3 knuckles in a more upward blow. And of course, also in my karate training we do spend time on hand edge/knife hand strikes such as haito or shuto uchi, finger strikes etc. My question, or pondering is, aside from a finger rake/gouge to eyes in SD or a knife hand strike to the neck for a carotid/jugular blow or osophagus break, is there really any use in the smaller knuckle or finger tip strikes?

...And if so what is the wing chun slant?

Yeah...from a WC/WT slant, hitting with the bottom three knuckles works very well. And, contrary to some posts, the bones of the wrist and arm align very strongly in this position, if you use a proper WC/WT straight verticle fist punch with the elbow pointing down. The problem arises when you put this fist on the end of a boxing or karate strike, especially to a hard target. Then you run a good chance of a "boxer's fracture" of the bones of the little fingers. And for a martial artist with mixed training, there's a good chance that this mistake could happen in the chaos of a real fight. About twenty-five ago I remember getting "into it" with a total jerk, and letting him have it...with a huge, ridiculous "haymaker". I had been in WC/WT for a couple of years at that time...but in the heat of the moment all my training went out the window. It surprised the hell out of me and caused me to re-evaluate my training. Based on that, I'd say that you'd probably be better off sticking to the punch you use best...that is the one that is most instinctive for you. As for myself, I'll continue to use either a verticle fist with the bottom three knuckles or a palm strike, since by now, those are my instincts.

 

[matsu]

thats a good point geezer.
in the heat of the moment,.... would i go back to my karate stance and punch...... mmmm i,m not sure i would.
even after this short time i feel comfortable with what ive learnt.and how it feels as i use it.
master james is so specific in his direction about what to hit how to hit it and when to hit it. i am in no doubt that if i follow his instructions i am safe and the other person.... very much NOT so.

 

[Zero]

Kamon Guy; Most wing chun schools say to use the bottom three knuckles which I have tried with limited success. So I switched (after my current Master's advice) to using the whole hand. This is much more devastating

That's a response I did not expect, in the two years I trained in wc under my sifu there was no chance of entertaining working another punching style into the training (and of course this is the case in many mt styles with traditional schools). While I thought the wc training itself was at a high level, it was very traditional and rigid and not at all open minded to cross training - again fair enough if that's the sylabus or master's
prerogative. What is the set up for your school - does your master actually let you use whole hand/knuckle strikes during class/training and patterns or only after in informal sparing etc??

 

[brocklee]

Yeah...from a WC/WT slant, hitting with the bottom three knuckles works very well. And, contrary to some posts, the bones of the wrist and arm align very strongly in this position, if you use a proper WC/WT straight verticle fist punch with the elbow pointing down.

That's right. It all comes down to alignment and keeping the entire arm relaxed. This is my point when stating that it's beneficial to NOT train in other arts because small things like this get over looked during time of battle and usually result in boxer's fracture.

 

[chisauking]

Quick answers:

1) the reason why we punch using our end knuckles is because the knuckles is supported by the large bone that runs all the way up to our elbow. A good test is by using a verticle punch to punch something solid. First, use the end knuckles, then 2nd, use the large knuckles. You will feel which is the stronger if you punch hard enough.

2) Using the smaller knuckles allows us to punch 'deeper' into the opponent to cause far greater injury. It's like using a pin with a tiny force to jab someone, oppose to using the large knuckles which cover a greater surface area, and therefore less penertration (just like an elephant weighing tons but can't damage a wooden floor, but a 100lb women wearing stillatoes can go into the wood).

3) Palm strikes can actually cause more damage than punches, but it must be applied with 'ging'. Most people discount palm strikes because they have not reach the level which enables them to apply it with 'ging' or focused power. Of course, there are other applications for the palm strike, but I don't have time to go into details.

4) Regarding finger strikes, I can always hit my opponent's nose -- or any part of his face -- using finger strikes. If I so choose, I'm sure I can hit their eyes. If you think hitting people in the eyes is ineffective in fighting, then I guess finger strikes are useless in combat.

Lastly, if you try learning karate and wing chun side by side, you will find it extremely difficult to comprehend wing chun. In my opinion, it's like water & oil. Of course, this is only my opinion, and I'm sure all karatekas are right if they refute my silly opinion.

 

[Zero]

Thanks all for taking time out to post those helpfull comments.

And Chisauking, thanks for the detailed reply. As for finger jabs etc I fully agree (and my point in fact was) that such strikes to the eye (and soft targets) are highly effective - I was only querrying the effectiveness of such strikes to non-soft tissue areas.

I think I understand your comments as to utilising 'ging' with the likes of a palm strike. Again I am well versed and rate palm strikes such as vertically angled into the base of the nose etc but, again, question why you would use a palm strike to the body (as we trained to do in wc) instead of an actual punch. Maybe because you can effectively generate more power in a shorter distance if you are in very close than with a punch? Again, I have trained a lot using "one-inch" punch/palm strike techniques but feel no extra power in the palm as to the fist/knuckle strike.

Another PS for Chisauking: depends on what karate style your core is as to whether compatible with wc training. I train in goju-ryu (which contains both hard and soft applications) so the wc concepts and many movements are not that foreign at all. Also, having trained in a few styles and being open minded, there is no problem running different mts alongside each other - you get what you want from the different systems. There are advantages and cons to both wc and karate but I doubt many experienced karateka would hold your opinions as silly or look down on wc at all; just different strokes for different folks!

Anyway, thanks for your posts!!

 

[chisauking]

All good points, zero. I think you understand the 'gist' of what I'm saying anyway.

Just to expand a little:

The palm can exert 'jiang-ging', which is like shock power. Also, if you are very close proximity to your opponent, your palm allows you extra 3- to 4-inch extra space to exert power -- just measure the space distance between a fist and a palm.

The surface of your striking area also makes a difference. For example, punch someone in the front of the face, and if you miss slightly, you will hit his forehead. Trust me, there's every chance you will break your knuckles. Palm them with jiang-ging, and you will have a greater area of hit with your spread out hands, which will cause their brain to clash within the skull -- nasty! But hey, that's fighting. I've have seen quite a few people being carried off on a strechture when they have been hit with the palm!

Again, I don't have time to elaborate too much on the beautiful palm strikes.

Regarding wing chun & karate, if it works for you, great. As I alway say, there's exceptions to every rule

 

[KamonGuy2]

Kamon Guy; Most wing chun schools say to use the bottom three knuckles which I have tried with limited success. So I switched (after my current Master's advice) to using the whole hand. This is much more devastating

That's a response I did not expect, in the two years I trained in wc under my sifu there was no chance of entertaining working another punching style into the training (and of course this is the case in many mt styles with traditional schools). While I thought the wc training itself was at a high level, it was very traditional and rigid and not at all open minded to cross training - again fair enough if that's the sylabus or master's
prerogative. What is the set up for your school - does your master actually let you use whole hand/knuckle strikes during class/training and patterns or only after in informal sparing etc??

Yeah at Kamon they encourage that you use the whole hand, but the decision is left to you. I'm just saying that in my experience I have found more power and more stability using the whole hand

Hope that helps

 

[brocklee]

I think I understand your comments as to utilising 'ging' with the likes of a palm strike. Again I am well versed and rate palm strikes such as vertically angled into the base of the nose etc but, again, question why you would use a palm strike to the body (as we trained to do in wc) instead of an actual punch.

This is an easy one Our palm strike isn't like that of most other arts. We don't just throw a punch with an open palm. With our palm strike you're able to gently place the hand on a portion of the body and then transfer the energy into a focused point. The energy penetrates much deeper into the body allowing for damage to the bones and organs as appose to bruising or injuring the muscle or flesh of the opponent. Also, a palm strike from us can block an attack, damage the enemy and result in a powerful shove which takes them off their center allowing for control for the next set of combos. Palm strikes go through a person instead of striking the outside.

Maybe because you can effectively generate more power in a shorter distance if you are in very close than with a punch? Again, I have trained a lot using "one-inch" punch/palm strike techniques but feel no extra power in the palm as to the fist/knuckle strike.

A successful WC punch doesn't feel powerful like most other style's punches. A good WC punch feels much softer on our end but has greater impact on the other person because proper skeletal alignment and energy transfer is used. If we want more power we simply step in instead of flexing our muscles harder (like a boxer).

Another PS for Chisauking: depends on what karate style your core is as to whether compatible with wc training. I train in goju-ryu (which contains both hard and soft applications) so the wc concepts and many movements are not that foreign at all. Also, having trained in a few styles and being open minded, there is no problem running different mts alongside each other - you get what you want from the different systems. There are advantages and cons to both wc and karate but I doubt many experienced karateka would hold your opinions as silly or look down on wc at all; just different strokes for different folks!

Anyway, thanks for your posts!!

I think what chisauking was getting at is that if you don't focus your training directly on WC, you may get the proper motions down but wont truly understand how the bones work underneath muscle. Different strokes for different folks? I think its more along the lines of people give up on WC before they get to the level of understanding and then they go on a degradation kick. Once you've reached this level you can us WC for most everything you do in life. I used WC just yesterday when I was carrying in the groceries. Kept my elbows in and used structure to hold the weight. When it came time to open the door to my place, I turned the knob and then transferred the energy into the door and popped it open.

 

[chisauking]

I agree with you, Broclee, about mixing methods before you get good at one. In my experience, wing chun uses a different 'engine' to run....As they say, the devil is in the details..

However, once in a blue moon, you get someone that comes along and break all the rules, and still make it work.

BTW, po-pai is also part of the beautiful wing chun palm reptitior(SP?)

 

[matsu]

i asked a very similar question about open handed techniques in the mma section -wether they were relevant in "dirty boxing" clinches where i felt they would be a great addition to a cage fighters repetiore. very few people on that section agreed and this thread explores the reason why i think.
we/i recently learnt and was shown very clearly how the "snap" in short space palm strikes were concussive and very real trouble for anyone used upon.and again in some scenarios where you cannot engage elbow and punch mechanices they are perfect.

matsu

 

[qwksilver61]

Two cents here....stay with the wall bag exercise,learn to smack the bag (beans,lead or steel shot works)without moving the shoulders,yes use the three knuckles,drill,drill,drill)and yes, massage the hands.To me the vertical sun punch is more forgiving than a two knuckle punch against a big dude that somehow slips off or strikes at an angle,ouch! (Iron fist,bell,& palm is no myth,knockout power can be achieved by anyone)sorry went off on a tangent.......

 

[matsu]

lead??? shot???? OMG NOOOOOOOOO:soapbox:

you kidding me lolo. stick with split peas/lentills... much safer

but wallbag yes yes yes

matsu

 

[qwksilver61]

good catch! But yes I did know a guy once who did in fact use lead shot in a bag.Maybe no too bright but definitely a fascinating individual.Homemade Kung Fu,self taught with many taped episodes of Kung Fu theatre at his diposal! Knuckles,hmmmmm I guess It depends on how you condition,the guy I trained did no conditioning and wanted quick results,the head is pretty hard.I know that bones given proper training will build marrow and calcify under constant load.

 

[DocM]

Hello everyone here’s my two cents. Why do we hit with the last two knuckles:

• Energy does not like changing direction. Look at the karate wrist it’s bent towards the little finger. This decreases the efficiency of the strike. This also increases the probability of injury. The WC wrist is straight at impact [yes just after impact you can angle your wrist up for uprooting but its not necessary]
• The karate arm causes a concentration of forces in the radial head, because the bone goes from larger to smaller at the radial head. The radius HAS NO BONY Connection to the rest of the arm, just fibrous again the energy must change directions to get back to the elbow. The fibrous connection also saps energy thru its elastic nature. Again injury probability increased. Conversely the WC punch goes thru the Ulna bone and forces are dispersed away from the elbow. Thru a bony connection.
• The styloid process is on the side Karate wrist bends to, it’s a very small fragile bone and will break easily. WC wrist is straight or bent in the opposite direction on impact
• Small tubular bones have stronger tensile strength the shorter they are. Try this if you don’t believe me. Take a pencil and place it over your middle finger with the fingers on either side on top of it. Break pencil in half. Now break that half in half. Etc. once you down to an eighth pencil try it see how hard it is.
• You shoulder is in a poor position with your elbow raised as in karate. It is a VERY unstable joint under the best of conditions add repeated jolts in a bad position look out. WC shoulder much better supported.

Things to remember. Learning this takes TIME. It feels STRANGE and WEAK in the begining, especially if you are previously trained in other arts. Most importantly everyone asks the wrong questions. The question is not how do I want to punch. The correct question is how was the human body designed to punch most efficiently.

That’s the readers digest version hope it helps Dr. M

 

[Zero]

Again, very helpful and interesting replies and posts.

I still have my wc wall pads - filled with sand though - not lead shot...
Although primarily work the heavy bag in the garage these days as have been working with an ex professional boxer to increase the hand speed and combo abilities.

Doc M - thanks for that post and some of the more mechanical reasoning behind the punch style. INterestingly, when I took up goju karate, with the top knuckle strike, putting the arm and wrist in a straight line with the fist (fist being vertically alligned) I was told by my sensei (a very experinced full contact fighter) that this way provided one of the most stable punches - and so far in five years competing I have not had any wrist issues - so maybe both the wc and the gojuryu 'karate' punch I use are along similar (but also opposite!!) lines??

Cheers