Knives

[guy b.]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Double knives were common in southern styles. Hung ga, CLF and wc have double knives. Usage and shape vary with families and styles.While Ip Man got his start with another teacher- good analysis will show that Ip Man's wing chun is different from that of his first teacher. Not likely that he made it up himself. He made the claim,credible to me,that Leung Bik-from Leung Jan's family taught him his advanced wing chun.

I think the most recent conclusion on Leung Jan is that he only had one son (Leung Chun, who died young) and that Leung Bik probably didn't exist. Who then was YMs later teacher? Did such a person exist at all? It is certain that YM only had 3 years with Chan Wah Shun from a very young age. His most important verified teacher then is Wu Chung Sok, an early student of CWS. Beyond this there is not much solid info. Did he learn more wing chun at a later date? I don't think that important

Ip Man named his knives- meaningfully- bot jam do. Bot is 8 in Cantonese. Common misinterpretation is that there are 8 jam motions.the bot is in the details of the motions.

IM was stingy in teaching the bjd-only about 4 of his students were taught the bjd by IM himself. Others learned from 2 of the four. Still others made up their own motions-IMO.

While there are many cutting and chopping motions- there are others including stabbing

As far as I understand it, YM did not know or did not properly explain why the 8. There is a lot of speculation but I have not heard a fully convincing answer. Lots of people cite the 8 character shape regarding knife orientation.

Knife derived from YM that I have seem is primarily a blade not point style. A few stabbing motions is all. Interesting given changes in how the knives were configured predominantly during the lifes of Leung Jan and Yip Man, respectively.

 

[Vajramusti]

I think the most recent conclusion on Leung Jan is that he only had one son (Leung Chun, who died young) and that Leung Bik probably didn't exist. Who then was YMs later teacher? Did such a person exist at all? It is certain that YM only had 3 years with Chan Wah Shun from a very young age. His most important verified teacher then is Wu Chung Sok, an early student of CWS. Beyond this there is not much solid info. Did he learn more wing chun at a later date? I don't think that important



As far as I understand it, YM did not know or did not properly explain why the 8. There is a lot of speculation but I have not heard a fully convincing answer. Lots of people cite the 8 character shape regarding knife orientation.

Knife derived from YM that I have seem is primarily a blade not point style. A few stabbing motions is all. Interesting given changes in how the knives were configured predominantly during the lifes of Leung Jan and Yip Man, respectively.

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You have your views -that's ok. But IM did teach key students of the knives-why the bot. You have not seen Ho Kam Ming using the knives and are not likely to.;
Stabbing and cutting are not mutually exclusive. motions

 

[geezer]

I think the most recent conclusion on Leung Jan is that he only had one son (Leung Chun, who died young) and that Leung Bik probably didn't exist. Who then was YMs later teacher? Did such a person exist at all? It is certain that YM only had 3 years with Chan Wah Shun from a very young age. His most important verified teacher then is Wu Chung Sok, an early student of CWS..

Granted the scarcity of reliable records from that period, the most recent speculation is still just that .... speculation. Unless you have access to new information, "recent" doesn't mean correct. Here's some more topics for speculation:

Who really wrote Shakespeare's work? Some anonymous British royal of the period? Was it time traveling Jack the Ripper? Did he also shoot JFK? Is Obama a citizen and a Christian ...or a socialist muslim from outer space? And of course, we all know that the CIA blew up the twin towers. But why?

So tell me more about this guy Wu Chung Sok. He's one I haven't heard of. I always understood that after Chan Wah Shun's passing, Yip Man was tutored by his Si hing, Ng Chun So and his brother, Ng Siu Lo, the senior students of Chan. This information was written down by GM Yip late in his life.

 

[guy b.]

Granted the scarcity of reliable records from that period, the most recent speculation is still just that .... speculation. Unless you have access to new information, "recent" doesn't mean correct. Here's some more topics for speculation:

Who really wrote Shakespeare's work? Some anonymous British royal of the period? Was it time traveling Jack the Ripper? Did he also shoot JFK? Is Obama a citizen and a Christian ...or a socialist muslim from outer space? And of course, we all know that the CIA blew up the twin towers. But why?

These are all indeed topics for speculation.It is interesting to speculate of course, but as a skeptic I am most interested in eliminating the unlikely and substituting the likely, removing the superfluous and substituting the relevant. For me, I don't mind if YM made up big parts of wing chun based on some teaching he received as a child and young man, fed through later experience. In many ways this seems more likely than some other accounts, especially given their close similarity to martial takes from 1930s fiction. Things like the swords of wing chun (form and function) provide interesting clues in this direction.

I think it is an important thing to do because nothing is more inimical to the open and effective passing on of the system than old tales with no basis in fact, speculation posing as knowledge, and received tradition masquerading as fact.

So tell me more about this guy Wu Chung Sok. He's one I haven't heard of. I always understood that after Chan Wah Shun's passing, Yip Man was tutored by his Si hing, Ng Chun So

Same guy. Ng/Wu Chun(g) So/Sok.

 

[guy b.]

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You have your views -that's ok. But IM did teach key students of the knives-why the bot. You have not seen Ho Kam Ming using the knives and are not likely to.;
Stabbing and cutting are not mutually exclusive. motions

Why are the wing chun knives like early 20th C (performance) knives in terms of form and function, rather than militia period (fighting) knives?

WSL was a person that received the knives from YM, and also someone who tested and reformed what he learned to a large extent. Why would you rate the words of one such person over another? Both would be presenting an impression of what YM told or showed them. The fact that there are conflicting accounts between these students is damning in itself.

Of course maybe I just haven't been told the ultimate and convincing truth you are alluding to. Without some meat it is nothing more than the usual whispers though. What use is a knife form that is so secret nobody understands it, does it properly, or even passes it on. Without extreme luck, success is a numbers game at the end of the day.

 

[guy b.]

Is this the form?

 

[wckf92]

Is this the form?

WOW...Who's form is that??? What lineage???

 

[geezer]

Why are the wing chun knives like early 20th C (performance) knives in terms of form and function, rather than militia period (fighting) knives?

Logically, the smaller BCD knives (in our lineage that would be medium width blade "stabber/slashers" that can be concealed in a boot or sleeve) would be more practical in peacetime than the much longer thrusting swords of the uprisings of the mid 19th Century. Times change, weapons change.

Mid-19th C. Hudiedao:
https://chinesemartialstudies.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/hudiedao-63cm-14mm-dragonphoenix.jpg

Smaller, 20th C. Bart Cham Dao as favored in my lineage:
http://cdn3.volusion.com/ckv9e.ymqc3/v/vspfiles/photos/Z-BJD-EWC-LT-S11-440C-LG-B-4.jpg?1428481788

What use is a knife form that is so secret nobody understands it, does it properly, or even passes it on.

That is a very good question.

 

[geezer]

WOW...Who's form is that??? What lineage???

Good lord. You could practice that dance for 10 years and all those lame applications, and a real fighter with knives, a solid staff, bat, or machete would have your head. Literally. That's the problem with secret BCD practice.

I believe the limited movements I was taught are potentially more functional, but not if trained strictly as "forms". Then they are just as useless and ceremonial. Sometimes I get so fed up with this silliness I just want to swing a bat or shoot a shotgun. At appropriate targets of course.

It's October. Pumpkins are in season!

 

[wckf92]

Good lord. You could practice that dance for 10 years and all those lame applications, and a real fighter with knives, a solid staff, bat, or machete would have your head. Literally. That's the problem with secret BCD practice.

I believe the limited movements I was taught are potentially more functional, but not if trained strictly as "forms". Then they are just as useless and ceremonial. Sometimes I get so fed up with this silliness I just want to swing a bat or shoot a shotgun. At appropriate targets of course.

It's October. Pumpkins are in season!

Awww screw it Geezer...shoot a shotgun at the bat which is swinging to hit the pumpkin!!! This IS America after all! hahahahahahahahaha

 

[LFJ]

As far as I understand it, YM did not know or did not properly explain why the 8. There is a lot of speculation but I have not heard a fully convincing answer.

Simply, because there are 8 sections to the form, depending on how you group the actions.

Not at all an uncommon way to name weapon forms in TCMA; number of postures, number of sections, number of the main action, number of categories of actions, number of total actions (as in 6.5 pole)...

This works with WSL's knife form, because it was designed with logic and symmetry, the markings of a good form. Someone not so well-versed in form creation won't be able to design such a well-structured form. It is obvious when people make up their own forms without this background. Their forms lack symmetry and logic. Then they are left with a number in the name of their forms that they no longer know the meaning of, and they are either secretive about it or come up with strange explanations for it that only kind of make sense.

 

[guy b.]

Logically, the smaller BCD knives (in our lineage that would be medium width blade "stabber/slashers" that can be concealed in a boot or sleeve) would be more practical in peacetime than the much longer thrusting swords of the uprisings of the mid 19th Century. Times change, weapons change.

Mid-19th C. Hudiedao:
https://chinesemartialstudies.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/hudiedao-63cm-14mm-dragonphoenix.jpg

Smaller, 20th C. Bart Cham Dao as favored in my lineage:
http://cdn3.volusion.com/ckv9e.ymqc3/v/vspfiles/photos/Z-BJD-EWC-LT-S11-440C-LG-B-4.jpg?1428481788

I agree. But since times and weapons change, what does this tell you about the time the bjd form was (most likely) created? And who might have created it?

 

[guy b.]

Simply, because there are 8 sections to the form, depending on how you group the actions.

Not at all an uncommon way to name weapon forms in TCMA; number of postures, number of sections, number of the main action, number of categories of actions, number of total actions (as in 6.5 pole)...

This works with WSL's knife form, because it was designed with logic and symmetry, the markings of a good form. Someone not so well-versed in form creation won't be able to design such a well-structured form. It is obvious when people make up their own forms without this background. Their forms lack symmetry and logic. Then they are left with a number in the name of their forms that they no longer know the meaning of, and they are either secretive about it or come up with strange explanations for it that only kind of make sense.

I have seen the form with more than 8 sections

I agree that the WSL form(s) are good examples when you compare with all of the bjd forms in existence.

 

[geezer]

I have seen the form with more than 8 sections

I agree that the WSL form(s) are good examples when you compare with all of the bjd forms in existence.

Considering how secretive people are about these forms... how would you (or anybody else) know about "all the bjd forms in existence"? Not youtube, I hope?

Now about your comment in post #32.... Hmmm. Interesting point, except I bet that short BCD have also been around for quite a while ...at least since Leung Jan's time. But you are absolutely right that we really don't know how old the current versions of the BCD form is. You know, the older I get, the skeptically-er I get too.