Knife hand in poomsae

[J. Pickard]

When did KKW change all sonnal makki to end in such a low position? When I learned the Taegeuk poomsae and Koryo all knife hands ended with the fingertips about nose level just below the eye (similar to the first video below), but recently I've noticed every KKW school doing shoulder level. When I looked into it older resources show just below face level (the way I was taught) but newer resources are below shoulder level. Why was this change made? Was there a practical reason? was it cultural? was it for the sake of the sport?
Videos of TG4 for reference.

 

[skribs]

This may be one we never have an answer to. There are some people who say that KKW changes things all the time. There are others who say the current correct method is the only method that ever was correct, and there were people doing it wrong in the past.

I guess this particular debate does make one of my Master's idiosyncrasies make sense. He had a tendency to change his mind on specific techniques, but not admit it. For example, one technique ended with you taking the other person down and standing over them in horse stance. If people put their knee down, they would get scolded. Then a month goes by and you stand in horse stance, and you would get scolded for not putting your knee down. Or another technique that half the time ended in a punch, half the time in a break, but if you did the "wrong" one for that day (with no warning), it's your fault, not his for changing it.

Don't get me wrong, in 99% of these times, I think both of his options would work. In fact, I wouldn't have minded having a "Grab Defense 1A" which ends in a break and "Grab Defense 1B" which ends in a punch. But the way he went about it...

 

[wab25]

Why was this change made? Was there a practical reason? was it cultural? was it for the sake of the sport?

Instead of looking at why the change was made.... I find it more interesting to look at why each side does it the way they do. You first learned it with the hand high. So, what was the advantage there? What was the application there? What were you learning and drilling, by putting your hand high?

Now, look at why they are putting it low. What is the advantage of having it low? What is the application of having it low? What are you supposed to be learning and drilling with your hand low?

If you are doing it a certain way for how it looks.... then who cares... do it however they determine it looks better.... If you are only doing it that way because your master or some other master did it that way... then who cares... pick your master and do it that way.... But, if you want to learn from the experience, try to learn and understand why each master did it the way they did.... learn what they were doing, what applications they used it in, and what they were drilling. Sure, you have to do the one that you are being graded on.... but why not take the opportunity to really understand what these masters are really doing. Having a better understanding of what you are doing and why, should help you grade better.

 

[J. Pickard]

Instead of looking at why the change was made.... I find it more interesting to look at why each side does it the way they do. You first learned it with the hand high. So, what was the advantage there? What was the application there? What were you learning and drilling, by putting your hand high?

Now, look at why they are putting it low. What is the advantage of having it low? What is the application of having it low? What are you supposed to be learning and drilling with your hand low?

If you are doing it a certain way for how it looks.... then who cares... do it however they determine it looks better.... If you are only doing it that way because your master or some other master did it that way... then who cares... pick your master and do it that way.... But, if you want to learn from the experience, try to learn and understand why each master did it the way they did.... learn what they were doing, what applications they used it in, and what they were drilling. Sure, you have to do the one that you are being graded on.... but why not take the opportunity to really understand what these masters are really doing. Having a better understanding of what you are doing and why, should help you grade better.

This is partially why I ask. I have drilled this technique at various levels and I haven't found a benefit to keeping it as low as the body. At face level it can be used to block common attacks, but more importantly at that level it can be used to frame against attacks and the opponents body. Kukkiwon seems to rarely give applications for their changes and the applications I have seen for this technique they adjust to face level. So my question then becomes why practice it at body level when the practical application is done at face level? It makes more sense to practice it the way that works, which then circles around to my original question; why change it?

 

[skribs]

This is partially why I ask. I have drilled this technique at various levels and I haven't found a benefit to keeping it as low as the body. At face level it can be used to block common attacks, but more importantly at that level it can be used to frame against attacks and the opponents body. Kukkiwon seems to rarely give applications for their changes and the applications I have seen for this technique they adjust to face level. So my question then becomes why practice it at body level when the practical application is done at face level? It makes more sense to practice it the way that works, which then circles around to my original question; why change it?

Your elbow being tucked in more helps protect your body and prevent arm locks.

If you watch this video, you'll see that the hand at body level was the go-to for bare-knuckle pugilism when fights were more frequent and before they started using boxing gloves. That guard position is also very similar to the guard we used in Hapkido.

 

[wab25]

I have drilled this technique at various levels and I haven't found a benefit to keeping it as low as the body.

One application that I see, for keeping it low, is for an arm bar / ulna press takedown.

Before the form starts, the other guy grabs both your lapels, while standing directly in front of you. The wide sweeping double knife hand move, goes under the grabbing arms, then up and through them, pushing them off. The leading knife hand, going down to shoulder level, would be bringing the other guys arm down, breaking his posture and exposing the elbow. The knife hand thrust following, would be the actual arm bar / ulna press. The fingers go right above the elbow, as you extend the arm for the thrust, your arm rotates the other guy arm and applies the bar. To make it effective, the leading knife hand would have to catch the other guys wrist, instead of remaining in the knife hand position.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What was the application there?

I believe the main target for palm edge striking are:

- head,
- face,
- neck,
- collar bone.

Will you use it to strike your opponent's chest, belly? May be not.

When your opponent blocks your left side kick and make your body to spin to your left, it's the best time to use your right palm edge to strike on your opponent's left collar bone.

 

[wab25]

I believe the main target for palm edge striking are:

- head,
- face,
- neck,
- collar bone.

Will you use it to strike your opponent's chest, belly? May be not.

When your opponent blocks your left side kick and make your body to spin to your left, it's the best time to use your right palm edge to strike on your opponent's left collar bone.

My point was that it does not have to be a strike at all. It could be a block, a parry, a strike, a grapple, a lock, a throw, an escape.... It also does not have to be the hand that makes the contact. It could be the hand, the forearm, the elbow....

I gave one interpretation.... as if you blend the first two moves together from the form shown in the video.... it looks very much like a jujitsu or aikido parry into an ulna press / arm bar. But, there are lots of possible interpretations. Skribs posted a video showing another reason for that position. That is why I was suggesting that you find out what it is that they are drilling. There are two versions, that are different. So learn what each version was actually doing.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Coming at this from a non KKW perspective my questions would be: 1. Are there "Official videos" showing what should be the Optimal performance? 2. Is their an official written text setting forth the technical parameters? I ask because as a follower of General Choi's system there is such a text and later editions have contained refinements and corrections though usually very minor and there are videos however it is understood that while the performers are very good they may not be "Perfect."

 

[andyjeffries]

My personal opinion/reasoning as to why - having the elbow closer to the body gives a strong block. If you have someone try to move your blocking arm side-to-side (the direction you're trying to deliver power) you should find it's much easier to resist if your elbow is closer to your torso. Obviously you aren't going to hold your block out while someone yanks it around, but that resistance test will show which position is stronger.

Also, if the blocking area is the side of the palm below the fingers, if the fingertips are at the nose, the side-palm won't be at the height a middle section punching arm is at.

 

[andyjeffries]

Coming at this from a non KKW perspective my questions would be: 1. Are there "Official videos" showing what should be the Optimal performance? 2. Is their an official written text setting forth the technical parameters? I ask because as a follower of General Choi's system there is such a text and later editions have contained refinements and corrections though usually very minor and there are videos however it is understood that while the performers are very good they may not be "Perfect."

The second video above is the official video.

The current Kukkiwon textbook 5-book series shows them as per the video too (fist/fingertips at or below shoulder height for middle blocks).

I'm good friends with one of the demonstrators in the poomsae videos. They had a couple of really senior grandmasters there during filming and were told corrections and re-shot anything that wasn't Kukkiwon standard. I don't know if the earlier set of videos had the same technical scrutiny (the demonstrator in the early video posted was GM Lee, Chong-kwan who is now one of the most senior examiners at Kukkiwon - even when those videos were shot, he was seen as senior - so maybe no-one wanted to correct him, so left him to do things his own way).

 

[MadMartigan]

From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if this change in hight is simply reflective of the how the guard is held in WT/KKW sparring.

Because the rules of the sport do not allow punches to the head, any attacks to the head have to come from a low position (the feet). This, and the practice of often fighting at long kicking range, makes a low guard more practical for the ruleset. Better to have the hands in a position to intercept something coming from a low position.

It takes longer to kick the head than the torso. Keeping the arms low makes protecting the torso easier, rather than dropping the arms down from protecting the head.

 

[andyjeffries]

From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if this change in hight is simply reflective of the how the guard is held in WT/KKW sparring.

Because the rules of the sport do not allow punches to the head, any attacks to the head have to come from a low position (the feet). This, and the practice of often fighting at long kicking range, makes a low guard more practical for the ruleset. Better to have the hands in a position to intercept something coming from a low position.

It takes longer to kick the head than the torso. Keeping the arms low makes protecting the torso easier, rather than dropping the arms down from protecting the head.

Personally I don't think it's related.

The reason is that the martial art side is defined by Kukkiwon and the rules for the sport are defined by World Taekwondo, so two separate bodies. Also, I think the practice of the sports side (e.g. low guard) is a refinement process of what works well within the current rules, rather than conscious thinking of "you must hold your arms here" - whereas Kukkiwon is considering all things specifically when changing the martial art techniques.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The second video above is the official video.

The current Kukkiwon textbook 5-book series shows them as per the video too (fist/fingertips at or below shoulder height for middle blocks).

I'm good friends with one of the demonstrators in the poomsae videos. They had a couple of really senior grandmasters there during filming and were told corrections and re-shot anything that wasn't Kukkiwon standard. I don't know if the earlier set of videos had the same technical scrutiny (the demonstrator in the early video posted was GM Lee, Chong-kwan who is now one of the most senior examiners at Kukkiwon - even when those videos were shot, he was seen as senior - so maybe no-one wanted to correct him, so left him to do things his own way).

So, that can explain a lot. If it parallels how Pioneer did things and retaining old habits that would parallel issues on how progeny of pioneers retained habits which filtered down to their progeny as opposed to following the standard set out by General Choi. (To the dismay of progeny or claims that things were changed over time) General Choi has detailed parameters in his texts so that High is "Eye" level and Middle is shoulder level with closed hand Blocks being determined by the top of the fist and open hand blocks being determined by the tip of the highest finger so depending on the pattern such blocks are specified as either High or Middle. If the photo or video differs typically the wording controls.