Knife Fighting 101: The Basics

[Langenschwert]

Knife fighting (if there is such a thing... knife ambush is more like it) is brutal and scary and confusing.

Look here (caution for footage of real-life violence):

Learn simple things that you can pull off while you're urinating in your pants out of terror. Be relentless and ruthless. Knife fighting is the most dangerous kind of fight, don't stay in it longer than you have to get the job done. Sometimes the job is simply escape, sometimes it's to destroy the opponent.

If you're in a knife fight, chances are you'll be stabbed before you know there is a knife present. There's very little chance of being involved in a knife duel. That's why it's called a "knifing", not a "gentleman's affair of honour".

If you have no weapon, you must neutralize the knife hand/limb ASAP. If you have time, GET a weapon. The first rule of unarmed combat is to arm yourself ASAP.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[KenpoTex]

A quote from the late, great Carl Cestari on the subject of "knife fighting"

[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]A knife or any edged weapon is an "up close and personal" tool of ferocious and brutal mayhem. You have to close with your mark and physically, violently and with extreme prejudice stab, slash, and hack him to bits. It's not like a gun, which could have an element of detachment. No, a knife is about as personal, brutal and ruthless as it gets.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]So what kind of "mind-set" does this entail? You are going close with your target hard and fast, using deception, surprise or simply a committed and brutal pouncing. You are going to be determined, ruthless, brutal, ferocious, vicious, and most probably filled with hate and rage. --Carl Cestari[/FONT]​

As far as defense against a knife goes, many (most?) such encounters are going to be ambush-type scenarios. Therefore, I actually think you're probably better off, at least initially, just dealing with it empty handed. Arrest and immobilize the weapon-bearing limb, then neutralize (i.e. incapacitate, maim, or kill) the body attached to that arm.
Deploying any weapon under pressure is difficult, a folding knife (which is probably what most of us carry most often) is even worse due to the number of actions that have to happen to have it ready for use. All too many people "fixate" on trying to draw a weapon instead of just dealing with the threat. You have to establish dominance before trying to access a tool or you're going to be stuck behind the curve.

 

[Chris Parker]

(Just gotta comment on this part first...)

Do not slice with your blade. A slicing motion will not disable your opponent. Only stabbing in a vital organ below the ribs is effective. The ribcage can catch your blade, so aiming for the heart is harder than it may seem.

... At least that's what I was taught in Combat TKD!:enguard:

Not sure if this part was what you were taught in Combat TKD (or the advice on commiting seppuku to avoid the Terminators, ha!), but I'd actually disagree with this advice. To take it piece by piece....

Slicing can be very effective, provided you choose your targets well. A lot of my knife stuff comes from Michael Janich and his MBC (Martial Blade Concepts), and slicing is taught as very effective there. In fact, I teach a number of programs for knife which are almost exclusively slicing actions, or combination thrust/slice actions. The primary concepts there are to slice to the limbs to disable them (disarm by slicing into the arm, stop the opponent from following by thrusting/slicing into the leg), and these programs are non-lethal responces to armed attacks. Slicing attacks to the body, I agree, are mostly ineffective, but a good cut across the tendons in the forearm will remove the use of that arm pretty much immediately. And a slice to the throat, well, Japanese blade work is predicated on slicing over thrusting, and has been for centuries now, so I'm going to feel it has some merit to it.

When it comes to stabbing a vital organ below the rib cage, that can take a lot longer than most think to actually have the desired stopping effect (whereas the slicing cuts to the limbs, disabling and disarming, can end a fight in a fraction of a second), as it can take hours to die from a belly wound. This is why in seppuku you have a second to decapitate you; simply plunging a blade into your belly isn't enough. In a best-case scenario, it generally takes up to 5 or 10 seconds for someone to bleed out enough to lose consciousness, and another 10 to 20 seconds for lethality to occur. And that's if you got an artery or vein, not an organ. Douglas Fairbairn did many great things for understanding close combat, but things like his generally accepted "Timetable of Death" (how long it takes to die from various injuries/wounds) are largely guesswork with little actual evidence to back them up. In fact, a number of his claims go against medical knowledge. Michael Janich became aware of this (I believe) through his training partner and Colorado Police Officer Christopher Grosz' investigation of the Timetable, and began formulating his approach to bladed combat with the new, more accurate information in mind. For anyone interested, I cannot recommend this book enough: http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=23916

When thrusting to the chest, yes the ribs will get in the way, but if you turn the blade sideways you will increase your chance of it deflecting off the ribs and continuing to penetrate. You may very easily chip the tip of your knife, but I can live with that. Thrusting to the heart, however, is still less likely. It is a little deeper than you would likely thrust, and is protected by muscles and sacs around it. More likely (and just as deadly) is that you will instead penetrate the lungs, essentially ending with the other guy drowning in their own blood as it fills their lungs.... all the kiddies gone to bed now? Good....

As said, though, my focus in knife combat is non-lethal, and based on fight-stopping, as many lethal actions don't stop the other guy long enough for you to actually be safe. But fight-stopping actions do. And I'd rather bet on that as an aim, rather than just killing someone (not something I'd like to do, actually).

Now, on to my "basics" of knife fighting.....

If they have a knife, odds are you won't see it. If you see it, odds are they don't want to use it, and are just trying to scare you. If this is the case, go along with it, and don't engage unless there is a real threat.

If you get stabbed and don't see the knife, odds are (due to adrenaline and other aspects) you won't feel it. It'll simply feel like a punch. Until you feel weak and fall over, that is. If you end up rolling around with someone and get hit in the body a bit (or even if you don't know if you were), when you get up, pat yourself down and feel for warmth and wetness. These are not good signs.

Some of the most common stabbings occur at the hands of the friend/girlfriend of the guy you're fighting.

A thrust only needs to be about an inch deep to be lethal.

If you manage to get at least 21 feet from a knifeman, you are only starting to get close to a safe distance to escape.

In a knife fight, generally only one person has a knife.... and generally the other doesn't know it's a knife fight.

If you are using a knife (defence against another weapon attack, knife, club, baseball bat, etc), keep the knife in front, and don't extend unless you want to offer a very deliberate target.... it will be hit/cut at.

Be aware of the natural responces of a knifeman in your training. They don't like it when you try to take their weapon.

Control of the weapon is everything. Once you have it, get it into a safe place and keep it there.

Being cut on the way to gaining control is acceptable, getting killed is not.

Knives can be hidden incredibly easily, be aware when you can't see someones hands... especially if they're showing any pre-fight indicators.

(Okay, a fun one...) Knives are dangerous.... but nowhere near as dangerous as the man holding the punnet of strawberries! Release the tiger!

 

[Vulcan]

Chris,

It would have been better if you didn't edit out the important part of my quote:

"Don't bring a knife to the fight"

what does this mean? Simply that your odds are better with superior force. i.e. a gun and plenty of friends with guns.

In the spirit of the OP, the posts here are tongue in cheek and doubtful anyone would take them as actual advice? This is all in a lighthearted manner.

But if you want to get down to brass tacks...come to my Law Enforcement Academy where you will learn how to deal with knives, shanks, etc. and maybe even get some real combat experience to boot on a ride along. Compared to real combat, all else is just theory. I don't care how much aliveness you think your favourite gym/dojo has. Somebody wants to kill you, everything in your strategy bag changes.

theory < kata < sparring< combat

Anyway...in the spirit of the thread, I wish I could keep a sword on my back, then pull it out and say in my best seppo version of an Aussie: "that's not a knife...now this...this is a knife!!!"

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Vulcan,

The reason I didn't include that part of your post (or the rest that I cut out) was that I agreed completely with it, so didn't think it needed clarification. That's all.

Oh, and I'd actually put sparring<kata, but that's me (and my understanding of both, really). Free-form responce, on the other hand...

Oh, and I get the "tongue-in-cheek" part, but the request/OP is for both serious and less-so, I opted more for serious.... aside from the Monty Python reference for those who caught it!

 

[Vulcan]

Oh, and I'd actually put sparring<kata, but that's me (and my understanding of both, really). Free-form responce, on the other hand...

I respect this opinion as I now engage in Kendo kata. It is possibly the most challenging thing I have experienced, to swiftly and deftly practice swordplay with a partner, stopping short of any actual blows within inches of your target.

This action can only be accomplished with a complete mastery of the form. There is no way to muscle through, fake, or be lucky in kata.

But I have not practiced this enough to comment further, thus my current being relies on my past training, namely to overwhelm with great force and cause my opponent to submit to my will. But perfecting my kata is something to consider.

Thank you for this lesson.

 

[Chris Parker]

I was given some great old footage of Kendo no Kata being performed the way it was before WWII, all done with Shinken, beautiful and simple, really love it.

My point is more that sparring (in the typical, sporting kind of approach) teaches some very dangerous tactics and strategies for real combative applications, whereas kata can teach them properly and safely. There's a reason all the old schools teach with kata almost exclusively....

If your past training has taught you to overwhelm with great force, I'm glad you're now moving past that... as I tell my (particularly larger and stronger) students, there's always someone bigger and stronger than you... and the chances are that that is who would attack you! After all, they wouldn't attack if they didn't think they had an advantage, would they? Say, for example, a knife? What do you know, brought it back to the thread!

EDIT: What do you know, found the clips of the old Kendo no Kata already posted here! For those interested, or those who haven't seen it yet: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39308 Enjoy.

 

[jks9199]

But if you want to get down to brass tacks...come to my Law Enforcement Academy where you will learn how to deal with knives, shanks, etc. and maybe even get some real combat experience to boot on a ride along.

No, you won't. Your DT training will be a VERY basic and VERY fundamental introduction to combat with two specific goals: 1. Officer Survival, and 2. Arrest. You'll probably spend at most a couple of hours on empty hand versus weapons. DT gets short shrift all too often in the academy and in-service because there are just too many other things to cover in the limited time available.

And if you get real experience on a ride-along as either a civilian or a recruit... somebody really screwed up. A good officer doesn't willingly take an unprepared ride-along into that level of danger; they wait in the car or are dropped off somewhere safe before responding. Of course, violence often happens with little warning and preparation... but when you're responsible for that person's safety -- you do what you can to avoid serious dangers.

 

[Vulcan]

No, you won't. Your DT training will be a VERY basic and VERY fundamental introduction to combat with two specific goals: 1. Officer Survival, and 2. Arrest. You'll probably spend at most a couple of hours on empty hand versus weapons. DT gets short shrift all too often in the academy and in-service because there are just too many other things to cover in the limited time available.

Okay. Maybe you just want to challenge every post I make? Are you a cop, Jim? If you are, then you know that different places offer different levels of training, and that also additional training is there for different levels and/or interest of recruits. Basic training doesn't teach you how to shoot from a bicycle either, but you can learn how if you so desire and sign up for class. I never said " Basic Training"...I said "Academy". I can personally name two people that can offer solid training on dealing with shanks and knives specifically for close quater ambushes, the like you would encounter in from an incarcerated person. Scary stuff, but it works. Are you speaking from personal experience as an officer or drill sergeant? Because earlier it was noted that one should consider unvalidated opinions posted on the internet with a grain of salt. You may have even been the one who posted that.

And if you get real experience on a ride-along as either a civilian or a recruit... somebody really screwed up. A good officer doesn't willingly take an unprepared ride-along into that level of danger; they wait in the car or are dropped off somewhere safe before responding. Of course, violence often happens with little warning and preparation... but when you're responsible for that person's safety -- you do what you to avoid serious dangers.

That's why I said "maybe". I personally have witnessed a situation where the only officer available to respond to the call, had a ride along at the time. Of course, the sergeant asked him what the deal was and he got chewed out. But yes, sometimes you have to consider your options, and answer the call instead of twiddling your thumbs. In those cases, you tell the ride along to stay in the car (your bolded statement, duh....you can witness stuff from the car too, imagine that!), and you do what needs to be done.

**** happens. More often than not it happens in the line of duty.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

If he drops his knife, or you disarm him, whatever you do, do not give it back to him.

Unless you put it into him.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

A quote from the late, great Carl Cestari on the subject of "knife fighting"



As far as defense against a knife goes, many (most?) such encounters are going to be ambush-type scenarios. Therefore, I actually think you're probably better off, at least initially, just dealing with it empty handed. Arrest and immobilize the weapon-bearing limb, then neutralize (i.e. incapacitate, maim, or kill) the body attached to that arm.
Deploying any weapon under pressure is difficult, a folding knife (which is probably what most of us carry most often) is even worse due to the number of actions that have to happen to have it ready for use. All too many people "fixate" on trying to draw a weapon instead of just dealing with the threat. You have to establish dominance before trying to access a tool or you're going to be stuck behind the curve.

One of the great things about Crazy Carl ( My Old Sensei trained with him when they were both with Goldberg and Ibbarra) is that he actually did knife people in prison, so he really knows what he is talking about.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Unless you are trying to conceal the weapon, always keep the point or an edge towards the enemy. ther could be a collission in the fight and a point forward can win the day for you, why waste motion. Whne we do Pekiti Tarsia knife tapping and kinfe passing we really get down on student who let their knife point to the side and go nuts if they point it back at themselves.

Defanging the snake is a good idea, whether its Fillipino style or Bowie, if he extends a limb, cut it, take it off line , enter and stab or rip them somewhere vital and then some where else and some where else...

Always keep moving, stalling in edged combat is what our foortwork and movements set up, therfore we seek to never stall ourselves. When you stall you are now fixed and a fixed target is a dead target.

A great place to stab a man is the bladder. Blood loss, poisoning of the system and psychological shock ensue. We train to stab midline anywhere from solar plexus down to behind your testicles.
You go for the baldder/ groin and if you don't hit it, they tend to throw their *** back, opening up their face.

Don't forget you still have feet, a free hand, a body and off balancing techniques, USE THEM along with the wepaon where applicable.
We do practice Prison style Amping attack with the balde and freehand and feet (Throwing your frehand rapidly at their face, short kicki9ng the legs as you enter ina nad stab, slash and rip.

Learn to PLICE/PLUNCH meaning dont rely on a balde to be sharpe when you cut, use force. You dont always have a razor sharpe knife, you should be able to drill a dowel through your enemy if you have to, you should be able to rip open a throat with a butter knife. Plus percussion hurts and disorientates.

Cut him and get away or go in and take him down when you stab/rip him, dont just stand toe to toe and wait for your cuts and stabs to take effect, you will probably both die in that case. Defang him, make the killing stroke but get away or get him on the ground.

Never underestimate anyone, especially with a kinfe.

 

[zDom]

Bring the right type of knife.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hide your blade. It's an extension of your arm, and should come as a hidden cross punch after you feint with the jab.


Never hold it akimbo like they do in the movies.


Do not slice with your blade. A slicing motion will not disable your opponent. Only stabbing in a vital organ below the ribs is effective. The ribcage can catch your blade, so aiming for the heart is harder than it may seem.


Finally, do not bring said knife to the fight, as the other guy might have a gun. Better to just bring your gun.

The knife is best used as a backup weapon after all the bullets are gone in both your main and backup weapons, and the Terminator is still moving toward you. Then you use the knife to commit seppuku so that the cyborgs won't torture you to find out the location of the rebel base.

At least that's what I was taught in Combat TKD!:enguard:

Um, so I can't slice at his knife hand?
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

My tip is, don't cut yourself.
sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Chris,

It would have been better if you didn't edit out the important part of my quote:

"Don't bring a knife to the fight"

what does this mean? Simply that your odds are better with superior force. i.e. a gun and plenty of friends with guns.

In the spirit of the OP, the posts here are tongue in cheek and doubtful anyone would take them as actual advice? This is all in a lighthearted manner.

But if you want to get down to brass tacks...come to my Law Enforcement Academy where you will learn how to deal with knives, shanks, etc. and maybe even get some real combat experience to boot on a ride along. Compared to real combat, all else is just theory. I don't care how much aliveness you think your favourite gym/dojo has. Somebody wants to kill you, everything in your strategy bag changes.

theory < kata < sparring< combat

Anyway...in the spirit of the thread, I wish I could keep a sword on my back, then pull it out and say in my best seppo version of an Aussie: "that's not a knife...now this...this is a knife!!!"

This sort of negates the idea of sending Green Berets into the desert armed only with a ceramic blade. Maybe we need ceramic M-16s.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Rule # 99: Don't let your eyes become fixated on your opponent's blade.


Let your eyes follow your target. Parry with your free hand, and do it instinctively. Not by looking down at his/her blade.


It's amazing how fixating a blade can be, especially if it's polished or stainless. Before you know it, you will be hit because your eyes were not on your target reading the assailants moves.

This is why the Kung Fu guys put red ribbons on the handles of swords. Keeps your eyes off the shoulders.
Sean

 

[Shin71]

If you have to be there expect to get cut; that way you dont freak so bad when you see your own blood, their blood, red stuff.....

Also if you have a knife as well (otherwise I dont really think it would be a knife "fight") dont fixate on having to just use your knife, your other hand and feet are still tools as well.