Knife Defenses

[Rubber Ducky]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Ms. J, are you talking about the infamous crosshand block against a blade? If so, I know exactly what you mean. To me, it seems an FMA person would love for somebody to block a blade like that.

Now, if you slightly modify it from a simple crossblock to a gunting...

Cthulhu

Is this crosshand block done as an "Aha! Now I have you!" block, or is it a prelude to other techniques? That is, does someone block and then try to *hold* the knife arm/hand while applying other techniques (kick to the groin perhaps ) or does this block lead on to other techniques performed on the blocked hand/arm?

I've only done knife defense in Kali and Aikido, and neither one of those has the cross hand block (or anything really fitting that description), and what I'm using as a mental picture is the cross block I learned as a white belt in Shotokan Karate against a kick

The techniques I've learned in Aikido are sound, even if we don't practice them enough against a blade - they are derived from or the same as our techniques against empty hand so they come fairly naturally. However, they are limited and make certain assumptions about how the blade is in the hand and the direction the cut is coming from that don't take into account the incredible versatility of the knife as a weapon.

In Kali our defenses primarily consist of using our weapons too

Pierre

 

[Cthulhu]

It's the same block you learned for a kick. If someone tries it, just trap with the live hand, cut upwards into their wrists, and let them bleed out.

When I helped the FCS guys out with a seminar, they made a good point: to learn knife defense, you have to learn how to fight with a knife so that you can better understand the attacks that could come at you. Then, it is possible to get the most benefit from your defenses.

Cthulhu

 

[Rubber Ducky]

I have to agree that that is a less than ideal block for a knife attack. It offers no control of the weapon arm while it ties up both defending arms on only the knife hand. What happens if the knife-guy has two? :erg:

Pierre

 

[Ms J]

Pierre" I have to agree that that is a less than ideal block for a knife attack. It offers no control of the weapon arm while it ties up both defending arms on only the knife hand. What happens if the knife-guy has two? "

Ms. J grins wickedly...

Ummmm ya die faster....

However, it only takes three movements to kill someone that has used that block for a single strike to the gut now. if the block was made slopy it only takes 2 to get the knife deep into the gut

Add the other knife to it then i would be going for the throat or eye at the same time i was slicing up and stabbing to the gut,

I.e. tap, cut up at the same time you cutting up use the other knife to the throat or face wile your stabbing to the gut from the opening of the hands you just got from slicing up through the hands.

If anything the defender would try and block the strike to the face even though i had just cut his hands, this of corse would just make the stab to the gut even easer i.e. the bate.... as he blocked i would be slicing down on his arm and driving the domenet hand knife deep into the gut.

And yes this is a standard block normally taught in many karate based and other tradtional arts, as a block for a kick but what i have been seeing and finding is that their using it for a knife defense and that with some of the very long term trained they go to it automatically. Deadly to be sure... :samurai:

in judo its taught and used as a knife defense flat out, the intent is you block and then you roll your hands up and around placing the knife in a joint lock in frount of you, and they use both hands to do this. one of my students has 30 years teaching and training in Judo, he almost ate it on the street using this block.

wana see an adault man cry? have him find out everything he has learned about defending aganst the knife in over 30 years is worthless.

what scared me is that he has been teaching this tech to the police for 15 years... :angry:

Ms. J

 

[Cthulhu]

Again, if you change that crossblock to a gunting, passing the knife and destroying the bicep or elbow, it's a viable technique, though a followup is definitely required.

Ms. J, your point with the two (or more) knives reminds me of something...

When we work knives, my FCS guros wear web belts with several holstered knives. Once, after teaching me a disarm, one of them came at me with an angle 1. I performed the disarm and came up beaming, rather proud of myself. Well, then the guro drew another knife and came at me...and another...and another...

I learned that disarm real quick!



Cthulhu

 

[Rubber Ducky]

Yeah, the X-block can work into a gunting etc. I can see that, still it's better to practice it as a gunting from the beginning perhaps.

In Aikido we have some techniques that are viable since they contain their own followup. That is, we don't block and then try to do something based on that. Usually it'll be something like a pass followed by a technique or maybe some run-a-waza.

We haven't done this in Kali yet, although we've touched on it, but how many people work jamming the draw? This would address the "problem" that Cthulu was having I think...

Pierre

 

[Cthulhu]

That's what I meant...change the crossblock to a gunting. A gunting could be looked at as a moving crossblock, so you'd really be changing very little. The technique would just be more dynamic, not to mention, more effective.

The nature of the disarm would have prevented me from jamming the knife draw. No worries. I thought it was pretty funny, that's all.

Earlier that day, the guro did a knife disarm on me, but I was in a position to draw one of his other knives from his web belt...so I did. He took that one away, too

Doing a takedown on me, one of his knives slipped free of his holster and landed in front of me. When I went to grab it with my free hand, he stepped on the knife, smashing my fingers into the concrete surface we train on.

And all this was during the same day

Cthulhu

 

[Rubber Ducky]

Cthulu, I was trying to agree with you about the crossblock/gunting thing....

Anyhow, sounds like that was a good day - informative at the very least.

We were messing around one time in Kali using the environment to help in an armed vs. unarmed encounter. I was armed in this case and the other guy wasn't. So we get to the stage (after he threw some chairs at me etc., good stuff) where he has my knife hand controlled and he has my back (standing), so I switched the knife to the other hand and stabbed upwards between my legs and got him in the "goods". Laughs all around...

And I'm still at the point with my gunting (at least with the doble baston) where I'm as much a danger to myself as to my partner

Pierre

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Rubber Ducky
Cthulu, I was trying to agree with you about the crossblock/gunting thing....

Anyhow, sounds like that was a good day - informative at the very least.

We were messing around one time in Kali using the environment to help in an armed vs. unarmed encounter. I was armed in this case and the other guy wasn't. So we get to the stage (after he threw some chairs at me etc., good stuff) where he has my knife hand controlled and he has my back (standing), so I switched the knife to the other hand and stabbed upwards between my legs and got him in the "goods". Laughs all around...

And I'm still at the point with my gunting (at least with the doble baston) where I'm as much a danger to myself as to my partner

Pierre

Ah, I see, I misread your post! You meant that people should learn the gunting rather than the crossblock. We were on the same page...I was just dyslexic!

That day where my guro kept drawing knives on me...on the last knife, I goofed the disarm; he still had the knife, but I had a positional advantage over him. Not knowing what else to do, I kneed him in the side of his exposed knee. I know it hurt him, but he told me that was good, so I wasn't too guilty about it

Cthulhu

 

[ReturningThunder]

what is fma and where can i learn it ?

 

[MJS]

what is fma and where can i learn it ?

Filipino Martial Arts. A few examples would be Arnis, Kali and Kun Tao. As for where you can learn....where do you live? Maybe we can help you find a school.

Mike