Kihon Happo roots

[Lawman85]

Scott -

Would my opinion be more valid if I was an instructor and the answers to your questions were "Yes"?

Yes

I understand there are many people who feel that kihon happo is universal - and applies to everything. I would counter that the principles and strategies INSIDE of the kihon Happo are universal...

Damn, as Americans we really over analyze stuff.... lol...

So the question on the table is: Is GansekiNage a techinique or a principle? If it is a technique - then it has LIMITED application. If it is a principle - then it has a broader application.

It is both.

For what it is worth - before this degrades into a member size contest - I don't believe in perserving techniques just to have them without exploring the principles...

If you don't preserve the techniques, then you lose the art. The techniques must remain, and be taught and learned, in order for the art to live. It doesn't matter if you understand why you are doing them, or what the principles are behind them, or what year they were created, you must trust that they were put in there for a reason. At some point in your training, you will understand all of that, it may be sooner or later, but if you train hard enough and long enough, then your questions will be answered.
The way I have always trained is to practice the Kihon everyday and try to perfect the movements and body control. Then I try to incorporate the techniques and principles into real life scenerios. That is how the art grows, but the basics still must remain.

So, actually, almost every answer in this thread is right if you combine them.

 

[Dale Seago]

If you don't preserve the techniques, then you lose the art. The techniques must remain, and be taught and learned, in order for the art to live. It doesn't matter if you understand why you are doing them, or what the principles are behind them, or what year they were created, you must trust that they were put in there for a reason. At some point in your training, you will understand all of that, it may be sooner or later, but if you train hard enough and long enough, then your questions will be answered.
The way I have always trained is to practice the Kihon everyday and try to perfect the movements and body control. Then I try to incorporate the techniques and principles into real life scenerios. That is how the art grows, but the basics still must remain.

So, actually, almost every answer in this thread is right if you combine them.

Looks to me like you and Shidoshi Weidman are probably pretty much in agreement here. . .

 

[davidg553]

So the question on the table is: Is GansekiNage a techinique or a principle? If it is a technique - then it has LIMITED application. If it is a principle - then it has a broader application.

-Daniel

From Bujin No. 11:

"It can be said that the method of "Ganseki Nage" is the foundation of throwing. With this "big rock throw", as it has a thousand variations and *limitless permutations, and varies in *limitless ways, one should go on training in it thoroughly."

**The original quote contained the words 'countless' and 'uncountable', respectively. To me, these words convey the ideal of being limitless so I substituted accordingly.

So does 'method' refer to the technique or principle?

I'm reading the English translation of Bujin so the idea in the original Japanese could be quite different.

 

[Lawman85]

Looks to me like you and Shidoshi Weidman are probably pretty much in agreement here. . .

I agree

 

[DWeidman]

So the question on the table is: Is GansekiNage a techinique or a principle? If it is a technique - then it has LIMITED application. If it is a principle - then it has a broader application.

It is both.

Then explain the difference between Gyaku Zeoi Nage <sp?> and GanSekiNage? If the principle is a throw and has limitless variations - then why name it and give it context -- Principles and Concepts / Strategies have no context by definition, neh?

Anywho - we are all agreeing more than we are disagreeing.

-Daniel

 

[DWeidman]

...are you now so gifted that you would have a better say than Hatsumi??

Scooter -

When Hatsumi tells me I am wrong in this matter - I will post a public retraction. Until such time, if you don't mind, I **WON'T**just take your word for it (even though that is what you are trying to get to do...)...

Perhaps you should take a moment and re-examine the context they were speaking in....

Were you there when Charles spoke to Hatsumi - or are you getting this information second/third hand?

How often has Hatsumi directly contradicted himself?

Anywho...

-Daniel

 

[Scooter]

Scooter -

When Hatsumi tells me I am wrong in this matter - I will post a public retraction. Until such time, if you don't mind, I **WON'T**just take your word for it (even though that is what you are trying to get to do...)...

Perhaps you should take a moment and re-examine the context they were speaking in....

Were you there when Charles spoke to Hatsumi - or are you getting this information second/third hand?

How often has Hatsumi directly contradicted himself?

Anywho...

-Daniel

Whatever floats your boat. I have no reason to believe that Charles or Ed would make things up, and I know they are both closer to Hatsumi than either of us. If you wish to be untrusting in others (in this case seniors and personal friends of Hatsumi) that's your perogative/problem.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In his book "Taijutsu" from the 80's, Charles Daniel refers to sanshin as sunshi no kata, all the while speaking of the concept "zanshin". He also states that the reason there are so few lunge attacks in Japanese swordsmanship is because of the fact that the 16th century Japanese had a diet that affected the length of their legs.

Earlier this year someone I know asked Noguchi sensei something about Charles Daniel, and Noguchi apparently was unable to remember whom Charles was to save his life.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

How often has Hatsumi directly contradicted himself?

He does it all the time. He's Soke, he can do whatever he wants.

 

[DWeidman]

Whatever floats your boat. I have no reason to believe that Charles or Ed would make things up, and I know they are both closer to Hatsumi than either of us. If you wish to be untrusting in others (in this case seniors and personal friends of Hatsumi) that's your perogative/problem.

I never said I don't believe them - what I am suspicious about is the CONTEXT they were talking in.

Do you believe their status exempts them from making mistakes or being above reproach? Do you blindly believe everything they say???

How often has Hatsumi directly contradicted himself?

He does it all the time. He's Soke, he can do whatever he wants.

Exactly... This means that "Authoritative" answers (even when straight from the horse's mouth) are not always as set in stone as you would like to believe them to be.

He is a Ninja - ya know...

Whatever ....

-Daniel

 

[Cryozombie]

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[Shinobi]

Anyone ever heard of Jûroppô-me "16 views"? This is what everyone thinks is Gyokko-ryû Kihon Happô. The Kosshi Sanpô is the same, the Torite Gohô is where the differences are. No oni-kudaki and ganseki-nage in the jûroppô-me.

On the Takamatsu DVD you see for a few seconds the densho that Takamatsu-seseni made for Hatsumi-sensei showing the Gyokko-ryû Kihon (jûmonji and hichô no kamae), what the official title of that densho is I am not sure.

Its the same on the Gyokko Quest video, no names, just ippon-me, nihon-me, etc as listed in the densho supposedly.

Also if you have the 1988 Shadows of Iga festival footage of Manaka teaching, he shows the jûroppô-me on Stephan and Shawn up on stage.

As to when the Kihon Happô was put together ask Hatsumi-sensei as he is the only one who truly knows. Was it Toda, Takamatsu or Hatsumi? Daily Double for 2000$ Alex!

 

[jtweymo]

Hello guys,

I don't usually post in the ninjutsu forums but...

Two points for ya

-- I'm the guy who's webpage is at http://mypages.smig.net/users/jtweymo/Kihon_happo.htm
this webpage was mentioned in the first post of this thread and it is one HELL of an old website. And a bad example of my school.

Go here for a much better look at it: http://jtweymo.angelfire.com/SYR_1.html

but even then it ain't nothing special. Whatever you'd wanna know about the school is said there.


-- Kihon happo like one of the posters on this thread said is a common kihon structure, ours bears no relationship to X-kan structure or technique. Whether or not your Bujinkan version of Kihon happo was coined by Hatsumi or not, I dunno. But I do know this much, in line with the inquiry placed by the original poster: "kihon (no) happo" as a term (whether similar to your bujinkan version or completely different) occurs in at least four ryuha that I know of (counting your bujinkan it would be five.) The following link, check out the translation page for "Shibukawa ichi ryu" if I am not mistaken
http://jtweymo.angelfire.com/Trans_pages.html Look for "kihon (no) happo", I'm pretty sure it's that ryuha, I have several translated on that page.

I also know that what Hatsumi has you guys doing for kihon gata like the happo is in fact common kihon-gata typing for: Hontai yoshin ryu, Takagi ryu, and various Kukishin schools.

• Your kihon-gata basics target the same three primary targets taught by all these class of schools (they're ALL yoshin schools by the way, go here for an explanation. Bottom of the page.) The entire set of your kihon happo is an adaptation of the standard kihon-gata of the yoshin ryu schools in general. Hontai yoshin ryu has a version of them (kihon yonho, goho and roppo.) Takagi ryu has a version of them as do most of the Kukishin schools. Shinto yoshin ryu, Tenshin shinyo ryu and many besides use some form of the same material that your bujinkan calls "kihon happo"
  • From this perspective Hatsumi did NOT coin these things or their structure. It's stuff common to all the Yoshin schools.

Again, I don't usually post in the ninja forums so I'm sorry if my comments were uncwelcome? It isn't my school. But the guy (Fool Wolf) seemed to wanna know if the Bujinkan Kihon happo was jujutsu related... or worse, related to my school.

Fool Wolf said: The below link lists techniques called "kihon happo" to a Jujutsu school. The names for a lot of the moves are similar to the Bujinkan techniques. Is there a relationship between Gyokko ryu and the Jujutsu school mentioned?

NOPE. Not unless Gyokko ryu is a yoshin school, which I doubt. I've never heard it said so. ALSO Gyokko ryu is an older school (two forms exist, the koryu and hatsumi's branch) older in than Shinden yoshin ryu was founded in 1910. Shinden yoshin ryu isn't related to the X-kans, except wherein yoshin techniques might be shared in common. But from what I've seen of X-kan techniques, they aren't usually the same thing.

But I won't bother you with chit chat on my school, your inquiry was kihon happo related.