Kihon Happo roots

[kenanderson]

Mr. Reisinger,

It matters a great deal where basics come from. Without knowing where they come, why they were designed, and how they work, then we are doing something fundamentally empty. Also, without having that knowledge, it makes applying the lessons much more difficult. Without know where they came from, it makes it difficult to apply not only the technical aspects of the technique, but also the spirit is lost, making for a sloppy outcome.

 

[Scooter]

I disagree greatly! Although my approach isn't for the hitorical and cultural relavence of the techniques, but simply if they work! I wasn't saying to be oblivious to what we are being taught by sensei, but simply pointing out the fact that MOST people are paying waaaaaaay too much attention to it. there are alot of people out there who insist on keeping training notebooks and have a obsession about knowing all the details (here I mean history, etc.)...who cares?!? that isn't going to do squat for you on the street...unless your attacker is impressed by a knowledge of feudal japanese history and warfare. people should be spending much more of this time and focus on actually doing the technique and making it work. Yes, the katas need to be learned, but I think we're taking a step backward by getting too caught up in them...that's how you get trapped by them, not free from them as sensei wants us to be.

 

[Don Roley]

there are alot of people out there who insist on keeping training notebooks and have a obsession about knowing all the details (here I mean history, etc.)...who cares?!? that isn't going to do squat for you on the street...unless your attacker is impressed by a knowledge of feudal japanese history and warfare.

I have to disagree with you on this point. The stuff we do was not created in a vacum. There were certain realities that had to be dealt with when constructing an art like this. Knowing them can give a deeper understanding to the why and such that allows us to modify without destroying.

The guy I learned kyogen from said something that struck me greatly. "You have to know the rules and the reason why the rules are there to know when and how it is neccesary to break those rules."

You want to modify kata so that you can use what they teach on the street? Well you better know the rules like I said. And in this case that means why they were created the way they were. If you learn non-kata stuff then it is not an issue for the most part. And you are very correct when you say that we should be more worried about getting the technique down just as the teacher showed us.

But a lot of the best stuff is still transmitted through the old means. If you want to toss out the stuff that has no meaning anymore without tossing stuff that still is relevent, you had best know the subject matter backwards, forwards, up and down.

By this I do not mean having a complete notebook or being able to recite off all the soke of a particular school. Much more important would be things like trying on armor and figuring out how people would interact with each other in those times. At West Point they still learn how Hannibal beat the Romans even though elephants are not part of the military anymore. It is about having a deeper understanding and being able to expand your ways of thinking more than quick, easy lessons handed to you on a platter.

 

[Scooter]

However, my point is simply that if you are spending more focus on why the katas and such were created the way they were historicaly as opposed to how to make them work in today's situations, then they become static, fixed, historical and greatly irrelavent. I am NOT saying that we don't need to learn the kata, what I'm saying is there seems to be a trend of people putting too much emphasis on the when and not the how.

 

[DWeidman]

there are alot of people out there who insist on keeping training notebooks and have a obsession about knowing all the details (here I mean history, etc.)...who cares?!? that isn't going to do squat for you on the street...

This is a common argument from people who don't know the When, why and and Where - only their version of the how.

BTW, as Ed Martin ("Papa-san") has pointed out, the kihon happo can also be applied to legs, knees and feet as opposed to the arms, elbows and wrists.

Appeal to authority (your posts are riddled with this debate tactic)... This is a pet-peeve of mine. The Kihon Happo can't be applied to legs and knees. Take GansekiNage - for example. Please describe in detail how GansekiNage can be used on the legs...
If you try to do this - I can use the same GENERIC logic to show the direct correlation between Kihon Happo and:
1. Driving a car.
2. Eating Chicken
3. Tying a shoe, Etc ad nauseum...

While I appreciate the thought - it is rediculous to say such things.

However, my point is simply that if you are spending more focus on why the katas and such were created the way they were historicaly as opposed to how to make them work in today's situations, then they become static, fixed, historical and greatly irrelavent.

Says you....
This is an interesting response, however. By saying what you said above - you place your knowledge of how things work ABOVE the founders and the generations since. I don't think I have the resume to add and subtract from thier work... maybe you do?

I am NOT saying that we don't need to learn the kata, what I'm saying is there seems to be a trend of people putting too much emphasis on the when and not the how.

From your statement above - you are incorrect about the emphasis. It isn't on the When... it is on the WHY. If you don't think the WHY is important... well... ignorance is bliss, neh?

The schools have philosophical and strategic differences that are RELEVANT to understand why techiniques work the way they do. If you hodgepodge them without the right foundation - you bastardize the system. Again... check your resume (or post it here) before you decide what is best....

Anywho - this is most likely a wasted posting - as I am sure you aren't going to change...

Enjoy.

-Daniel

 

[Kizaru]

This is a common argument from people who don't know the When, why and and Where - only their version of the how.

I agree.

The Kihon Happo can't be applied to legs and knees. Take GansekiNage - for example. Please describe in detail how GansekiNage can be used on the legs...

The opponent kicks at you with his right leg.
You catch his kick on your left shoulder by dropping your weight and scooping his right leg with your left arm, similar to "Hane Tsurube" from Gyokko ryu.
Raise your arms, turning clockwise rise up cinching opponent's knee.
Step forward 45 degrees across opponent's "pedestal leg" with your left leg, tossing him away being sure not to get smacked in the head with his leg.

If you try to do this - I can use the same GENERIC logic to show the direct correlation between Kihon Happo and:
1. Driving a car.
2. Eating Chicken
3. Tying a shoe, Etc ad nauseum...

Please you the same generic logic to show the direct correlation...I need help eating chicken!!!

Personally, I feel I need to work a basic technique to death to get the leverage, rhythm etc correct. Then I need to know some background on the "why, when and where" before I start playing with how to adapt it. I think there are alot of important points to making things work, and prioritizing one over all the others is a deadend. When driving a car, it's important to know how to turn the wheel and work the pedals, but when it breaks down, I think it's important to know how the engine works...

 

[DWeidman]

The opponent kicks at you with his right leg.
You catch his kick on your left shoulder by dropping your weight and scooping his right leg with your left arm, similar to "Hane Tsurube" from Gyokko ryu.
Raise your arms, turning clockwise rise up cinching opponent's knee.
Step forward 45 degrees across opponent's "pedestal leg" with your left leg, tossing him away being sure not to get smacked in the head with his leg.

And that is GansekiNage??? Where is the spine locking - or the displacement of his upper body from his hips? Or how about how the locking mechanism (you should be bending his knee instead of locking his leg). You can use the same technique and claim it is MusoDori, or UraGyaku...

There is a HUGE difference between identifying a similiarity and it being the same....

This is what I was talking about...

When driving a car, it's important to know how to turn the wheel and work the pedals, but when it breaks down, I think it's important to know how the engine works...

This isn't the point I was trying to make. The schools have concepts that are tied to their kamae - their kata - their strategy and their principles. You can't hodgepodge them together later without the understanding of why they are in the school they are in to start with... The Maai and Kukan are fundamental to school's inherent principles and strategies...

At any rate...

-Daniel

 

[Kizaru]

And that is GansekiNage???

No, it's a variation applying the principle of Ganseki Nage.

Where is the spine locking -

When you turn clockwise, opponent's spine "locks".

or the displacement of his upper body from his hips?

Stepping across displaces the upper body.

Or how about how the locking mechanism (you should be bending his knee instead of locking his leg).

So you're agreeing that Ganseki Nage can be done on the leg, so long as you lock the leg out be bending the knee?

You can use the same technique and claim it is MusoDori, or UraGyaku...

I disagree.

There is a HUGE difference between identifying a similiarity and it being the same....

:idunno:

I was under the impression that the discussion was digressing into "the principles of Ganseki Nage (et al) can be applied to the leg joints".

This isn't the point I was trying to make. The schools have concepts that are tied to their kamae - their kata - their strategy and their principles. You can't hodgepodge them together later without the understanding of why they are in the school they are in to start with...

I don't disagree with you there. As I wrote above, for me, technical competence as well as historical relevance is important for me to be able to effectivly apply what I'm being taught.

 

[DWeidman]

:idunno:

I was under the impression that the discussion was digressing into "the principles of Ganseki Nage (et al) can be applied to the leg joints".

I can agrue with you point by point again ... but in the end we are just arguing semantics here.

If the "principle" of gansekiNage is locking a limb over your shoulder and behind your head - then throwing with a hip twist - then yes you are correct. If the principle is locking a limb and throwing with a hip twist - then you are correct as well. If the principle is locking something and throwing - then, again, you would be correct. If the principle is just throwing someone - then, surprise, you would be correct.

So which is ganseki nage's principle? Or is there a principle and ganseki nage is an expression of that principle (this is a chicken / egg conversation).

Anywho --

I also have issues with the phrase that "groundfighting is taijutsu on your back" - as I believe the differences are significant enough to require a completely different look at things. But alas - that is for another thread another day...

Carry on...

-Daniel

 

[Mountain Kusa]

How about doing Hihon Kappo with the legs, I once caught my brother with onikudaki and threw him with it. All done with the legs. Thom Hunphries and Ed will all show how the Kihon are done on, to, and with the legs. One needs to understand leverage and physics. This is the feel.

 

[Gary Arthur]

In relation to Ganseki Nage, there are many ways to take the balance. One way is to catch the arm and with your right arm and then by sending your left leg back and twisting the hips whilst keeping the back straight one can throw.

Another way might simply be to move the attacker to a position where he is off balance and throw. Yet another might be dropping to the knee and throw onto their head.

As to this idea that the arm has to be straight, well this might be Ganseki Gyaku. There are many variations of Ganseki Nage. Ganseki Harai, Ganseki Osai, Ganseki Otoshi, Ganseki Geri, Ganseki Ori (on the leg or the arm) etc. Takamatsu Sensei I was once told would hug the opponents arm in tight to throw, other keep their hand almost pointing up to throw.

Their may be no correct way. What is important is the concept and the feeling. Now with Ko Hane Tsurube one can step inside the attack when the attacker punches and grab that wrist with your nearest hand. left to right for example. Then as the opponent throws a roundhouse kick one can drop the body and pull down on the arm and catch the kick on the shoulder. One can then throw using the same dynamics as Ganseki Nage.

I saw one of the Japanese Shihan do this on an old tape and the attacker was virtually ploughed into the ground. I would excercise caution when doing this as this is a very dangerous technique as the opponent cannot breakfall easily and lands almost on his neck.

On page 77 of Hatsumi senseis Japanese Hanbo book picture one it looks like he has done Ganseki nage with a stick to the leg. The page is entitled Gansekinage.

 

[Scooter]

Daniel- seems like you've gotten a few examples. However, since you went ahead and decided to attempt to attck my credibility, let me ask...what rank are you? who do you train under? have you made it to Japan to train with hatsumi or any of the shihan? do you train with any of the shihan in your area?
My reference to the kihon with the legs comes from a conversation with Ed Martin and Chalres Danniels, who both have discussed it with Hatsumi directly...are you now so gifted that you would have a better say than Hatsumi?? This is what I meant by the over emphasis on kata- people get so hung up on "this technique is like this..." that they miss all the valuable applications, and in Hatsumi's own words, then the technique dies.
And by the way, since you brought it up...I do happen to know the who, when, why and how- thanks for the concern though.

 

[Kreth]

=============
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Kreth
-MT Moderator-

 

[Scooter]

All I was doing was responding in kind, it wasn't too out of hand was it?

 

[Kreth]

Scott,
That wasn't directed at anyone specifically. It was just a friendly reminder. Things are mostly peaceful now that the neo-ninja crowd has gone back into hiding, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Jeff

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

My reference to the kihon with the legs comes from a conversation with Ed Martin and Chalres Danniels, who both have discussed it with Hatsumi directly...are you now so gifted that you would have a better say than Hatsumi?? This is what I meant by the over emphasis on kata- people get so hung up on "this technique is like this..." that they miss all the valuable applications, and in Hatsumi's own words, then the technique dies.

To break a pattern, first you need to HAVE a pattern.
It is a well known fact that the average Bujinkan practitioner has a grasp of kihon worse than ****. Until that problem is corrected, there are a lot of better things to do than trying to grasp what Hatsumi sensei is trying to put across so that one can go on nationwide tours demonstrating all the cool moves and analogies one has picked up in Japan.

 

[DWeidman]

Daniel- seems like you've gotten a few examples. However, since you went ahead and decided to attempt to attck my credibility, let me ask...what rank are you? who do you train under? have you made it to Japan to train with hatsumi or any of the shihan? do you train with any of the shihan in your area?
My reference to the kihon with the legs comes from a conversation with Ed Martin and Chalres Danniels, who both have discussed it with Hatsumi directly...are you now so gifted that you would have a better say than Hatsumi?? This is what I meant by the over emphasis on kata- people get so hung up on "this technique is like this..." that they miss all the valuable applications, and in Hatsumi's own words, then the technique dies.
And by the way, since you brought it up...I do happen to know the who, when, why and how- thanks for the concern though.

Scott -

Would my opinion be more valid if I was an instructor and the answers to your questions were "Yes"?

I understand there are many people who feel that kihon happo is universal - and applies to everything. I would counter that the principles and strategies INSIDE of the kihon Happo are universal...

So the question on the table is: Is GansekiNage a techinique or a principle? If it is a technique - then it has LIMITED application. If it is a principle - then it has a broader application.

For what it is worth - before this degrades into a member size contest - I don't believe in perserving techniques just to have them without exploring the principles...

Ciao,

-Daniel

 

[Kizaru]

So the question on the table is: Is GansekiNage a techinique or a principle? If it is a technique - then it has LIMITED application. If it is a principle - then it has a broader application.

...I don't believe in perserving techniques just to have them without exploring the principles...

My question has still gone unanswered-
"How can we apply those principles to eating chicken?!?!"

 

[Scooter]

My question has still gone unanswered-
"How can we apply those principles to eating chicken

Depends on which part of the chicken you want to eat apparently!

 

[Lawman85]

My question has still gone unanswered-
"How can we apply those principles to eating chicken?!?!"

My German Shephard is great at this principle! He manages to eat about one of my neighbor's chickens a week! His technique is more of waiting on them to jump the fence, cornering them, and then dragging their dead bodies to the front yard so my daughter can see them and get sick.
Unfortunately, he is so ninja like, I can't catch him on camera to show you how he locks the spin, displaces the body over the hips, and executes the throw....but I'm working on it for you....