Kidnap-Rapist-Murderer stopped by legally armed citizen!

[AC_Pilot]

Sad breaking story.. but at least the crazy was stopped. Unfortunately he is still alive but at least he's under arrest. My prayers go out to the (deceased) young lady and her family. Too bad she was not well-armed and ready:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,145053,00.html

 

[7starmantis]

Yeah, my sifu is at one of the TV stations right now doing an interview about womens sefl defense because of this. A buddy of mine knows the girls father and they were holding a donation this morning for a higher reward for her before thye found her.

We are doing a free Womens Self Defense Class this next week in light of this.

7sm

 

[Jerry]

I could not find where the article indicated that the person who shot him was legally armed. Nor can I find indication tha tbeing armed would have helped the murder victim (as it sounds as though she was unaware of him until she was hit).

Honestly, I have no reason to dimiss the thought that she was armed and it was her firearm that she was shot with. All the article seems to say is "she was shot and killed", "he was shot by someone else during a failed robbery".

 

[AC_Pilot]

She was not armed.. Texas law provides (wrongly, it should be 16 IMO) only for those over 21 to obtain a concealed carry lisc... and the scumbag was carrying a bag around, so he had the weapon in the bag or under his coat. Wal Mart has a twisted policy against employees being armed even when returning to their car in the lot, and you can bet they will face a huge lawsuit over this, lack of protecting their employees while dis-arming them.. I will not shop at Wal-Mart for this reason.

The RV park attendant was most certainly legally armed.. in AZ open carry of a loaded weapon requires no permit, nor does possession at one's business. And CCPs are easily obtained by any law abiding citizen.

I could tell you of several times my lady has used a handgun in self defense.. and myself at least 6 times. This does require a person to be alert and see the threat coming.. if the victim is in bunny rabbit condition white and is not paying attention, a rotary grenade launcher won't help.

 

[7starmantis]

There's not going to be a lawsuit over this, her being armed really isn't the issue. Now you can bet a change in policy about where employees park is in order, but we are forgetting that the ******* in this scenario is not Wal Mart, its the attacker who is now in custody. How in the world could a place like Wal Mart let its employees carry guns in the store? Thats just asking for trouble.

You have fired your weapon in self defense 6 times? And your lady many times as well? Wow, maybe you guys should start hanging out somewhere different!

Oh, what is "bunny rabbit condition white"?

7sm

 

[sgtmac_46]

She was not armed.. Texas law provides (wrongly, it should be 16 IMO) only for those over 21 to obtain a concealed carry lisc... and the scumbag was carrying a bag around, so he had the weapon in the bag or under his coat. Wal Mart has a twisted policy against employees being armed even when returning to their car in the lot, and you can bet they will face a huge lawsuit over this, lack of protecting their employees while dis-arming them.. I will not shop at Wal-Mart for this reason.

The RV park attendant was most certainly legally armed.. in AZ open carry of a loaded weapon requires no permit, nor does possession at one's business. And CCPs are easily obtained by any law abiding citizen.

I could tell you of several times my lady has used a handgun in self defense.. and myself at least 6 times. This does require a person to be alert and see the threat coming.. if the victim is in bunny rabbit condition white and is not paying attention, a rotary grenade launcher won't help.

I guess we can mark part of the problem up to poor marksmanship on the part of the RV Park attendant. Had he placed his rounds better, this whole case would be wrapped up and we wouldn't have to hear about a trial. Of course he did hit the guy, so i'll give him marks for quick response and picking an appropriate force option. Still, when a law abiding citizen shoots a dirt bag criminal, I like to hear words like "Fatal wounds" and "died at the scene".
While I disagree with CCW for 16 year olds (I barely trust them with a car) a law abiding 21 year old should be able to carry their concealed carry weapon.

 

[sgtmac_46]

There's not going to be a lawsuit over this, her being armed really isn't the issue. Now you can bet a change in policy about where employees park is in order, but we are forgetting that the ******* in this scenario is not Wal Mart, its the attacker who is now in custody. How in the world could a place like Wal Mart let its employees carry guns in the store? Thats just asking for trouble.

You have fired your weapon in self defense 6 times? And your lady many times as well? Wow, maybe you guys should start hanging out somewhere different!

Oh, what is "bunny rabbit condition white"?

7sm

I'll field "bunny rabbit condition white". That's the state of being where a UFO could land 100 yards from you, and you wouldn't even notice it because you're lost in your own little world, oblivious to your surroundings. It's where most people live their lives.

 

[AC_Pilot]

We agree on everything sgtmac, except one.. if they are responsible enough to drive a 2,500 lb piece of deadly machinery on the street with lots of innocent motorcyclists, pedestrians, car drivers, then they should be safe with a concealed handgun. It's a matter of discipline and in the old days a 16 year old was a man or woman. The problem is a lack of Spartan discipline. I would never allow a daughter to be out there in a car driving around without full self defense training and being armed..at minimum with pepper spray but if she was mature and able, a small full caliber pistol.

There may be a lawsuit in one of these cases in the near future and it's going to be a big blow to the anti-companies because as has happenned many times, the scumbag was noticed by security, they did nothing and the company policy that disarms employees while taking no steps for their safety is denying them the basic right to life and liberty, endangering them.

As far as employees being armed, there are many businesses that allow this and it has never been a problem.. ask any gun store that has all it's employees armed. I would never work anywhere that I could not be armed, but then I am self employed so I don't have to worry about that. My lady carries at work and it's legal and OK. It's nice to know that when she goes out to her car after work, in that dark parking lot she always has at minimum her short barrelled .357 magnum loaded with full power ammo. If it were my gal this scumbag attacked, he would be toes up in the morgue.

 

[7starmantis]

Wow

 

[AC_Pilot]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050122/D87P5OKO0.html

"Swindle provided little detail about the killing, but said Holden died of a gunshot wound, adding: "We have every indication that she was shot at the location where her body was found." (Texas)


Authorities said Williams kept heading west as he continued his crime spree, attempting a robbery at an Arizona RV park, but was foiled by a store worker who fired the shot that landed Williams in the Arizona hospital where he was treated and then taken into custody.
"He said, 'This is robbery, I want all the money in the cash register,'" retired New York City firefighter Richie Chapman said. "And as he said
that, he drew a weapon from underneath his shirt,
and I drew and fired." (Legally concealed weapon in the hands of a citizen)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Police said Williams, a preacher's son who was discharged last year after four years as a Marine, was arrested last month in Tyler on a cocaine possession charge. He was released the same day on $2,000 bond.

Police said Williams also was involved in an armed robbery at a convenience store in Texas on Thursday. http://apnews.myway.com/image/20050...0121180736.html?date=20050122&docid=D87P5OKO0"Something happened to my son," the suspect's mother, Pat Williams, told Dallas television station KDFW, saying he had trouble adjusting to civilian life after serving in Iraq. "Some of the things that he endured I may never know. But it changed who he is and for that I'm sorry."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AC Pilot, continuing my thoughts..
I've been saying for some time now that the Iraq invasion was "breeding" psychopaths, who would return here to commit horrible crimes. I have a cousin who is insane and dangerous as a result of Gulf War 1, so this is nothing new to me.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I think alcohol purchasing and handgun carrying are a better comparison than a driver's license. Even so, most states have graduated licenses now, recognizing the shear number of teenagers dying in car crashes. I doubt you'd like your daughter and her friends to be able to buy alcohol at 16. At the same time, I doubt you'd like one of her girlfriends drunken 16 year old boyfriends to have a .357 tucked in his pants whenever he gets in a fight with another drunken 16 year old.

I was 16 once, and if we had concealed weapons we'd have used them just like we jumped off bluffs, raced cars and did other things we never thought would come back to haunt us. Your assessment about the lack of Spartan discipline is correct, but that doesn't change the fact that there is not such discipline in the world today, and kids are not grown adults at 16 years of age. I figure, if you made it to 21 without a felony conviction, you're probably responsible enough to carry a gun. I don't want 16 year old kids carrying concealed weapons. I don't care if you as a grown adult do, because there's a difference between you and a 16 year old kid.

That's just my opinion, and we can politely disagree on that one point. Other than that, though, we're pretty much in agreement.

 

[BrandiJo]

i think if she had requested scurity to walk her out she would have been fine, i have never carried a gun, nor do i plan to. I do how ever request walk outs with the store scurity and carry peper spray stuff at all times. I dont think a gun would have saved her life, i think if she had one it may have been used on her.

 

[AC_Pilot]

i think if she had requested scurity to walk her out she would have been fine, i have never carried a gun, nor do i plan to. I do how ever request walk outs with the store scurity and carry peper spray stuff at all times. I dont think a gun would have saved her life, i think if she had one it may have been used on her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well Brandijo, we will never know because Megan Leann Holden is dead.. how could it have been worse if she attempted to defend herself with a handgun? At least she would possibly not have had to endure being beaten/tortured and raped before dying. Lots of people successfully defend themselves with handguns on the street every day in America.. the ratio of survival/success is several hundred to one when a citizen uses a handgun in self defense according to John Lott's studies http://www.johnrlott.com/ There won't always be security guards everywhere you go in life, I assure you. You are responsible for your personal safety, not the police or a security guard. In addition, if that security guard is not armed with a suitable handgun and very capable and alert, he might be laying in the parking lot dying from gunshot wounds while the madman kidnapper-rapist murderer is driving away with you. You don't always get a second chance in this life and my lady and I will not entrust a stranger, even a well-intentioned one, with our personal safety. I am so happy my lady wanted to be armed after a few scary experiences when she was younger..if only you knew what we have seen in our 44 years on this planet. She was always pro gun because her parents raised her right and were level headed folks. G-d has been kind to them in return and they are almost 90 yrs and still together and mobile/active. My Susan is an excellent combat pistol shot (Her weapons are revolvers, .357 Magnums and .38 Special snub nosed back ups) and she is quite profecient with her AR15 rifles as well. I have no doubt she and not the psycho would have left that parking lot, were she the intended victim.. her main carry weapon (.357 magnum) has a 94% chance of dropping a bad guy with one solid hit. She is always aware and ready, and gorgeous, too
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SGTmac, we'll agree that many of today's young men and women are utter fools and that is the fault of their parents. Young adults should not be allowed to roam around acting like children, getting into trouble.. they should be part time employed and kept busy preparing for full adulthood. In the not-so-distant past this "liscence to be immature and irresponsible" was not the norm and an average 16 year old was fully able to bear an arm for self defense. Stay at home moms policed the young folks and when dad got home justice was served if needed. This was how it was in my home, thank G-d. Please don't lump them into one box, my friend. I began working as a man at 13, after school and during the summers, Moved out of the house and had my own new motorcycle at 16, (I paid for it) and paid for my own musclecar (1969 SS camaro) at 18, as an example. I paid my own way thru college and I thank my father every day that he did not coddle me, but instead was quite tough on me..Spartan justice. That was real love. As long as I kept busy I did not have time for trouble. Again, I thank my father, who made sure I was employed and busy. Those ethics are now a part of my personal code of honor..it sickens me to see 14 year old young men in my neighborhood skateboarding around and acting like Bart Simpson, wasting their lives and becoming emotionally stunted degenerates. And young females having sex at 14 when they should not even be able to be alone with a boy at that age, and they should have been taught that virtue is the most important thing any girl can possess, to give to her husband at marriage as the ultimate gift. (so that goes for the boys also, the girls are the gateway, however, if they properly say "NO!", it won't happen and the boys naturally will learn how it goes) Yes, I'm "old fashioned" and proud of it. :supcool:

There are several states such as Arizona (Where this potential serial killer was stopped by an armed citizen) that issue CC permits to 18 year olds.. they don't seem to have a problem with that, nor do I. IMO all rights and adulthood should come at one time, say 16 or 18, and at that time you can obtain a : Driver's lisc, be drafted, marry who you choose, and have full RKBAs, etc.. it's hypocrisy to draft a young person at 18, send them off to possibly die and therefore never have a life, and tell them when on leave they cannot carry a pistol for self defense. Regards, Steve in Washington State.

 

[michaeledward]

I'll wait for the FOX Special ...

"When Marines Go Bad"
​

 

[BrandiJo]

I am not anti gun, i know how to use every gun my dad and bro owns, and maybe yes she might have had better luck had she had a gun, but a gun is by no means going to give her a 100% survivle rate. You are right there wont always be scrity or gaurds, not that i really like trusting my self to a totaly stranger, but not every place lets you carry guns, my college that i attend dont, were my dad works dont, were my mom works dont, sometimes laws prevent us from doing what we want to do so we should also accept other ways of protection other then a gun. I am sorry for the poor girls family, and im glad the SOB who killed her in is in jail right now and i hope he lives to stand a fair trial and goes to prision for a long time, but i dont wish him dead, because sometimes life is worse then death.

 

[AC_Pilot]

Brandijo,

Yes there are times even when one is armed (and I almost always am) that unarmed response is best.. I have been in several unarmed fights when I was armed and I did not pull my gun. But then I am a seasoned and trained fighter and few people are. Again, the ratio is hundreds to one positive outcome when a citizen pulls a defensive handgun.. that's pretty strong odds and I personally have done so 6 times without any harm to me or those I was defending. I could tell you hair curling stories but will spare you for now. My lady has done so twice, same result. We are batting 1000 right now.

The scumbag in Texas, will, thankfully be convicted of capitol crimes, and Texas is very very likely to execute him. Good riddance and all I can say is it's too bad we don't have the old style "get a rope" public hanging executions as intimidation against others contemplating such actions. Be safe, Steve

 

[shesulsa]

From the article:

The apparent abductor — a man in a long, dark coat — was seen loitering around the front entrance of the store "for a good period of time," Tyler police spokesman Don Martin said. The man was also seen on tape about 90 minutes before the abduction, emerging from a bathroom and walking around inside the store.

The tape later shows Holden getting into her truck and the man "running up behind her and either hitting her or pushing her," Martin said.

In another article, the reporter writes that security asked the man what he was doing there and he reported he was waiting for a ride.

So my questions are these:

Why allow anyone to enter the store carrying a duffle bag?

His behavior was clearly suspicious - why was he not more carefully watched?

When I worked retail security briefed us on procedures and always told us that if we needed to be walked to our vehicles to ask for escort and they would gladly oblige - why is asking security, when available, for escort a bad thing?

Sounds to me (though it is not the fault of the security officers on duty that evening that this girl was abducted, tortured, raped and killed) that perhaps they might have called the police to let them do their job and escort the man off the premises. I think they could have done more, but then again, a security officer's main concern is the client's property, not necessarily those on it. And we can keep blaming victims for being victims if we want, but that is pointless drivel and just plain wrong.

Ah, if only all the crimes in the world could be solved and paid for with, oh, say ... two or four plugs.

 

[bayonet]

Hopefully the hammer will fall on this scumbag.

 

[ghostdog2]

i think if she had requested scurity to walk her out she would have been fine, i have never carried a gun, nor do i plan to. .. I do how ever request walk outs with the store scurity Posted bj Brandijo

Maybe, just maybe, you're safe with the security guard because the sec. guard is carrying a gun.

 

[shesulsa]

Most security guards are not allowed to carry guns nor tazers without special certification. Most one-stop shopping stores do not contract armed security for anything but transporting deposits to the bank. But the guard may have pepper spray or extendable baton - the presence alone might ... MIGHT ... have made a difference.