Kettle bells in Karate

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some double stone locks training can be seen at 2.37 - 3.12.

 

[J. Pickard]

there is actually a field of study in kinematics focused on developing punching speed and power and definitively, the best way to develop power is to improve dynamic leg strength and core strength (especially lats). Exercises that studies show help the most are lunges, squats, jumping squats, box jumps and similar plyometrics. Core workouts that helped most were variations on planks, Russian twists, v sits, and similar exercises. There are some amazing kettle bell workouts you can do that works everything you need for martial arts but what you are describing doesn't sound like the best idea.

 

[Flying Crane]

From memory, very long ago , 70s

They were not weighted but must have weighed less then 10lb closer to 5,,, could be wrong.
A little hard to work with due to the weight placement, and grip in the various long arm practices...

There might be some current Tibetan White crane practitioners, on the site..

"Flying Crane"
comes to mind,,
hopefully he or someone else will chime in as to the weight, dimensions..ect.

"Kung Fu Wang"
would be the one to ask about "stone locks"
should some wonder

Sifu has some wood locks but I’ve never seen them used. My impression was that they have a hollow space and could be weighted with sand but if so, it seems to me that could become messy. My other impression is that they are bulky and seem to me that you run the risk of smashing them into the body quite a bit, if you use them. They are essentially a square wooden box with a fixed handle. In that regard, kettle bells would be physically smaller for the weight, with a rounded shape and are much more streamlined and potentially safer to use.

I have worked at times with the kettle bells, using them specifically for Pau Choi, one of the staple long-arm punches found in the Tibetan crane arsenal. In my opinion, you need to be very careful in how you approach this training as well as being very selective with what punches you use them. They are inappropriate for use with many of the different punches that we use. A swinging, low-to-high punch like Pau Choi makes sense because the shoulders are relaxed and the hand swings upward on the extended arm, as the body rotates, being driven by the legs. It is a small matter to grip a kettlebell while doing that, as the shoulder can remain relaxed ( very important in our methodology) while the technique is still powered by the legs. Increasing the weight should be done very gradually, as I believe it is easy to become overweighted and you end up muscling through the technique with the muscles of the arms, shoulders, and back. This separates the power of the technique from the legs, which is where the power should be coming from. When those upper-body muscles are working harder it is easy to deceive yourself into thinking you are getting a better workout and therefore are progressing. In this context, what you are doing is undermining your technique and developing bad habits. The strength gains you might make in doing this will not, in my opinion, offset the deterioration of your technique.

This is not to suggest that strength training is not valuable. It is. But it should be done as its own thing and one should be very careful and cautious when mixing it with technique. Good technique is typically done with relaxation, and when you load the weights onto your technique, you teach yourself to be tense and to muscle through it. So develop your strength in its own right, and the resulting greater overall power of the body will improve the technique when relaxed and done properly.

Techniques where I feel the use of the kettlebells are particularly inappropriate (from the point of view of Tibetan crane) are those that have a horizontal or downward trajectory. That would include a straight punch, hooking punches, and khap choi, pek choi, deng choi (Tibetan crane’s downward swinging punches). For the horizontal punches, the added weight of the kettlebells wants to pull the arm 90 degrees from its intended direction of travel. This training encourages the development of tension in the arms and shoulders as you fight against that weight. It is unnatural for that kind of movement. I find the video examples at the beginning of this thread (Jesse?) to be particularly cringey. He snaps the punch out and lets the kettlebell rotate around his fist, which means he is pulling back on the punch before it has reached its full penetration potential. He is relying on the momentum of the weight of the kettlebell in motion to bring out his punch, and I believe that does not aid in the development of useful power in that technique. I do believe that it actually contributes to joint injures if that training is done frequently.

For the downward traveling punches, the weight drags the punch down resulting in a disengagement from the punch itself. You end up giving up control of the punch and simply letting the arm ride downward on the weight. This separates the movement of the punch from the core torso rotation, and the power of the legs which again, should be the source of power for these punches.

I realize the terminology of these punches may be unfamiliar to a lot of the members here so sometimes it can be difficult to understand the message without seeing examples. Such is the nature of an online forum.

 

[windwalker099]

Sifu has some wood locks but I’ve never seen them used. My impression was that they have a hollow space and could be weighted with sand but if so, it seems to me that could become messy.

Think I might remember those ,,,its been a long while..
Some pictures if you had them might help others to understand general dimensions and size.

The ones that David Chin "hop gar" , sold though the Tibetan Hop Gar | Grandmaster David Chin web site

Introduction to Mok Yee Pai Gong

with an informative introduction and easy to follow movements, you will learn the 9 basic exercises of the Hop Gar Mok Yee Pai Gong. With these exercises you will develop overall physical strength and gain the body unity essental to martial arts of all kinds. This is an excellent way to rehab shoulders and develop the hand and arm strength crucial to the martial arts.
www.realhopgar.com
[email protected]

For those interested contact info..

Note: For informational purposes only
not affiliated with the site or style.

A friend of Shifu Chin...
He stopped making these before his passing.

 

[opr1945]

Some double stone locks training can be seen at 2.37 - 3.12.

Done to Chinese rap music?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The stone lock is much easier to hold for MA training purpose then the Kettle bell is.

Also, because the flat surface, it's easier to put stone lock on your body part for certain MA training.

IMO, stone lock is designed for MA training. Kelly bell is not.

 

[opr1945]

would a dumbell work the same?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

would a dumbell work the same?

The gravity center of a dumbell is at the center. It doesn't challenge your wrist strength as much as the stone lock does.

 

[opr1945]

"The gravity center of a dumbell is at the center." Where is the center of gravity on the stone lock? Isn't it in the center also? Why not?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"The gravity center of a dumbell is at the center." Where is the center of gravity on the stone lock? Isn't it in the center also? Why not?

When you hold a

- dumpbell, you are holding the center of that dumbell.
- KB (or stone lock), you are not holding the center of that KB (or stone lock). Its center is away from your grip. You will need extra wrist strength to hold it.

 

[Gyakuto]

would a dumbell work the same?

Yes…any sufficient weight would.

 

[Gyakuto]

"The gravity center of a dumbell is at the center." Where is the center of gravity on the stone lock? Isn't it in the center also? Why not?

It’s towards the more massive side of the block due to the asymmetrical shape of the block.

There is a lot of scientific evidence from the world of baseball that using weighted bats slows down the speed of of swings with normally weighted bats in normal playing. The same might apply to ‘weighting the fists’ with stone blocks, dumbbells or wrist weights.

 

[drop bear]

would a dumbell work the same?

Mostly.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

would a dumbell work the same?

I'm pretty sure any sufficiently heavy object would, yes. The main difference is that dumbbells are easier to grip, as others have said, but there's an argument that this is a GOOD thing because it means the actual prime movers of the exercise are challenged with more weight. For some reason, people get misty-eyed about kettlebells. The culprit here is Pavel Tsatouline. In one book, for instance he talks about how Russian soldiers were much more athletically capable than Western ones during the second world war, carrying their own equipment. What this misses is that being compelled to carry their own equipment is a much more likely explanation for their superior physical strength than the fact that they used primitive dumbbells. You have to use some kind of common sense- do you really believe that an awkward grip completely changes the nature of the exercise?

 

[opr1945]

my post ""The gravity center of a dumbell is at the center." Where is the center of gravity on the stone lock? Isn't it in the center also? Why not?"

Gyakuto reply "It’s towards the more massive side of the block due to the asymmetrical shape of the block."

That makes sense, how come I couldn't see it?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

would a dumbell work the same?

It depends on what you want to train. If you want to train

- finger grip + wrist strength + arm strength, the bag filled with BB is the best.
- wrist strength + arm strength, the stone lock, or KB will work.
- arm strength, the dumbbell will work.

 

[Same Trick]

On dumbbells/weights/martial arts



“In 1711, the British poet and essayist Joseph Addison wrote this in his popular magazine, The Spectator:”

“When I was some years younger than I am at present, I used to employ myself in a more laborious diversion…it is there called…the fighting with a man’s own shadow; and consists in the brandishing of two short sticks, grasped in each hand, and loaded with plugs of lead at either end. This opens the chest, exercises the limbs and gives a man all the pleasure of boxing, without the blows.”



Why Are Dumbbells Called Dumbbells?