Kenpo: Then and Now

[MJS]

This is a multi question thread. The things that I was looking to discuss were: What are some of the major differences in Kenpo back in the early days, compared to today? What do you think of the current state of Kenpo? What have you done to the way you do Kenpo, to keep it current with the times?

 

[MJS]

Well, to start the thread and answer my own question.

I wasn't around 'back then' so all I have to go on is what I've read and heard, but it seems to me that Kenpo back then, was much more hard core than it is today. This, IMO, is good and bad. In todays world, everyone has a job that they need to go to, so getting so broken up that you pay regular visits to the ER or are unable to function due to injury, isn't a good thing. However, I think that many times, people are afraid that the lawyers will be standing in line to file suit, so things are grossly toned down, almost to the point that theres no contact.

I think that the overall classes were different. I get the impression that back then, you needed to put in the hard work, otherwise you'd never advance, whereas today, it seems that as long as the student does the material well enough to pass to the next rank, thats ok. Go figure.

The current state of the art...seems like its still thriving today, which is a good thing. But it also seems that quality is often sacrificed.

What have I done with my Kenpo...I've devoted more time to expanding my training on the ground and with weapons. I dont want to assume that the guy that attacks me wont have some grappling training or wont know how to use a knife. MMA is very popular today, so I've spent more time looking at how they train, fight etc, and have added some things to my training. I'm not afraid of stepping outside the sacred Kenpo box, and there is so much out there, so I figure, when the hell, may as well look at the other things on the menu and see if theres something that I can add, something that I can compare my stuff to, some way to make something I do, that much better.

 

[seasoned]

Sorry, no Kenpo here. What you are saying would cover much of then and now, with many other arts. There are still groups that get together in out of the way places to train hard, and avoid some of the pitfalls that you mention. I do feel that the turn of events over the years as opened the dojo doors to a wide variety of people that otherwise would not experience the martial arts. There truly is something for everyone.

 

[marlon]

Well I was not there either, and from my understanding, I agree with you about the hardcore thing. Another major difference is that it is not so easy to fake knowledge and skill as it may have been. The information available , plus youtube certainly makes it easier to see the differences between so called 'masters'. The amount of information available means that there are much more instructors and students around with detailed knowledge of the principles and skill sets that make ken/mpo effective. The net has made it easier to conect with the seniors in the kenpo / kempo world and learn thier values concerning training. In this we are much better off and anyone taking the time to really investigate will more easily find quality.
Lately, there is an increase in creativity and a desire to step beyond the gifts from our kenpo / kempo fathers, which is where they wanted us to go, for the most part, IMHO.
What is worse is with the passing of the acknowledged founders there is a lack of leadership and authority in the kempo / kenpo world, for good or ill.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

The training was grittier, with the addition of fighting being added to training sessions almost immediately. You got your *** handed to you in the first couple weeks, and the dojo culture was one which inspired you to want to earn your place on the mat by sucking it up, and hopefully giving as good as you got in sparring sessions.

Sparring was less point-oriented, and more skill based. If a technique in class worked on a low kick followed by a high over-the-top shot with a lead hand cancel, then you were instructed to develop that as a fighting combo. Of course, that only held for a few minutes, then it was a free for all.

Issues in other threads about functionality were moot back then -- you walked out of class with some busted fingers and missing teeth, having applied what you learned to an attacker who was doing the same thing to you. If some poor sap came at you after class, you had some new stuff to throw at him, and some old stuff you refined in the mean time.

There were a lot more injuries, a lot fewer kids, and fewer lawsuits. It was a physical culture, with the innate understanding that participation = pain. Time passed, and the focus became making money in studio settings. Hence, the blue-collar thugs moved out of kenpo, and into other arts.

Nowadays, the same aggro steroid boys that used to show up for sparring night, now show up at the MMA studios, because they can get their grit on in a culture of physicality and intensity. That same nuthouse used to be the kenpo sessions.

Techniques? I see studios now that don't even touch their uke's while drilling. WTF? I still emphasize moving your attacker with each hit. It teaches the defender how to really throw some heat, and the attacking partner how not to have their head messed with by taking a hard hit... or several dozen.

We lost a real kenpo senior yesterday... Uncle Tino Tuiolesega. No BS brawls this guy used to get into. So many people got so scared of him, that they wouldn't tell the stories of old that involved him, lest he or his boyz show up on your step. He's moved on to greener pastures now, and people are still afraid to post old stories about him. Great example of how kenpo used to be... scary and hard.

Now we have nancy-boys doing air-kenpo and wearing loads of rank. Ah, well... whaddya gonna do?

For me, I tend to isolate my training to sessions with people of like mind. I typically either have to find gorillas to train with, or old dawgs who also hearken back to the days of yore, and have been doing it since well before Mr. Parker passed. I started on my birthday in 1971 as a kid; my next b-day will mark 40 years of being absorbed and obsessed with this hobby. Not as glamorous as being a surf bum, but then again I never could really get the hang of standing on a board, so why not kenpo?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

On the con side:

• You have teachers whose teachers have never been in a fight.
• A lot of schools train "in the air," developing black belts with no real understanding of physiology.
• Many teachers have lost sight of Parker's innovative spirit and simply copy the techniques as though they were holy writ - seeking to memorize, rather than understand.

On the pro side:

• There's more attention to the importance of ground game.
• Many kenpoists pay more attention to the ethical and spiritual aspects of martial arts training than before.
• We become more insulated from the infighting of the seniors with each passing year

.

 

[ATACX GYM]

The training was grittier, with the addition of fighting being added to training sessions almost immediately. You got your *** handed to you in the first couple weeks, and the dojo culture was one which inspired you to want to earn your place on the mat by sucking it up, and hopefully giving as good as you got in sparring sessions.

Sparring was less point-oriented, and more skill based. If a technique in class worked on a low kick followed by a high over-the-top shot with a lead hand cancel, then you were instructed to develop that as a fighting combo. Of course, that only held for a few minutes, then it was a free for all.

Issues in other threads about functionality were moot back then -- you walked out of class with some busted fingers and missing teeth, having applied what you learned to an attacker who was doing the same thing to you. If some poor sap came at you after class, you had some new stuff to throw at him, and some old stuff you refined in the mean time.

There were a lot more injuries, a lot fewer kids, and fewer lawsuits. It was a physical culture, with the innate understanding that participation = pain. Time passed, and the focus became making money in studio settings. Hence, the blue-collar thugs moved out of kenpo, and into other arts.

Nowadays, the same aggro steroid boys that used to show up for sparring night, now show up at the MMA studios, because they can get their grit on in a culture of physicality and intensity. That same nuthouse used to be the kenpo sessions.

Techniques? I see studios now that don't even touch their uke's while drilling. WTF? I still emphasize moving your attacker with each hit. It teaches the defender how to really throw some heat, and the attacking partner how not to have their head messed with by taking a hard hit... or several dozen.

We lost a real kenpo senior yesterday... Uncle Tino Tuiolesega. No BS brawls this guy used to get into. So many people got so scared of him, that they wouldn't tell the stories of old that involved him, lest he or his boyz show up on your step. He's moved on to greener pastures now, and people are still afraid to post old stories about him. Great example of how kenpo used to be... scary and hard.

Now we have nancy-boys doing air-kenpo and wearing loads of rank. Ah, well... whaddya gonna do?

For me, I tend to isolate my training to sessions with people of like mind. I typically either have to find gorillas to train with, or old dawgs who also hearken back to the days of yore, and have been doing it since well before Mr. Parker passed. I started on my birthday in 1971 as a kid; my next b-day will mark 40 years of being absorbed and obsessed with this hobby. Not as glamorous as being a surf bum, but then again I never could really get the hang of standing on a board, so why not kenpo?

First? I had no idea that Maser Tino passed.My tremendous condolences not only to his family but to all of us in Kenpo...we have lost a true legend.

I began training in 1976,as a child.I will relate my experiences later,but they are substantially what our senior whose post I quote related but with more sharp specifics that went on behind the scenes and under the radar.

On the con side:

• You have teachers whose teachers have never been in a fight.
• A lot of schools train "in the air," developing black belts with no real understanding of physiology.
• Many teachers have lost sight of Parker's innovative spirit and simply copy the techniques as though they were holy writ - seeking to memorize, rather than understand.

On the pro side:

• There's more attention to the importance of ground game.
• Many kenpoists pay more attention to the ethical and spiritual aspects of martial arts training than before.
• We become more insulated from the infighting of the seniors with each passing year

.

^^^ All of this is true,ESPECIALLY the parts of teachers who can't and don't fight,money grubbing teachers,the "rote memorization instead of understanding point" and greater attention being paid to the ground and clinch game,and the insulation from the infighting amongst our seniors.

 

[Twin Fist]

lot fewer 10th dans back then?

bad?
today, way too many people that never really studied with anyone thinking they know whats up

good?
the internet lets you see who actually knows something, or doesnt

This is a multi question thread. The things that I was looking to discuss were: What are some of the major differences in Kenpo back in the early days, compared to today? What do you think of the current state of Kenpo? What have you done to the way you do Kenpo, to keep it current with the times?

 

[ATACX GYM]

lot fewer 10th dans back then?

bad?
today, way too many people that never really studied with anyone thinking they know whats up

good?
the internet lets you see who actually knows something, or doesnt

I completely agree with the former but have some reservations about the latter...

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I completely agree with the former but have some reservations about the latter...

The trouble with the internet is that folks who know what's up can tell quality from idiocy...but people who don't know (whom I suspect are the majority of the people watching) might wind up with some dangerous ideas of how to stay safe.

 

[ATACX GYM]

The trouble with the internet is that folks who know what's up can tell quality from idiocy...but people who don't know (whom I suspect are the majority of the people watching) might wind up with some dangerous ideas of how to stay safe.

Very well said.I completely agree with this assertion as well.

My experiences have been largely similar to those espoused by Kembudo-Kai Kempoka.No nonsense discipline in the dojo.Hard calisthenics...all of our exercise were based on 100 reps.If my sensei said 3 sets of pushups? He meant 3 sets of 100.Same with every basic exercise,punch,kick,block,sweep,whatever.You were doing 100 in a row and you BET not complain (not "better" not complain,I mean BET not complain) and you BET like it.The iron discipline very quickly forged strong skilled kenpoists (I'm talking 2 weeks) from people who could walk in as a newbie.The worst of it all was those torturous Horse Stance drills.I hated those mugs.We had to hold the Horse Stance for a count of 100 (we had to count aloud,in unison) while we absorbed body blows.Get knocked down? EVERYBODY had to start over.Anybody collapse because their legs are too weak? EVERYBODY had to start over.One person held his horse stance too high? EVERYBODY had to start over.Beginners had to hold theirs for a count of 25,and all their reps were 25.I use this method and slightly lesser variant to this day.

I'm from Southeast San Diego.My first day of class,I walked in and was introduced to Sensei Chicken Gabriel,and another luminary by the name of Steve "Nasty" Anderson.My uncles formed the foundation of the fighting nucleus of TWIN DRAGONS in San Diego (before they went for McDojo money,and I hear that nowadays they've returned to their fighting roots),so I was in good hands from Day 1.Immediately I noted the hard workout ethic,the lack of complaints,the discipline...and that mess was SO COOL to me.Loved the starched gis and the sweat.Loved the trophies.I didn't love some of the techniques and stances but I knew to keep my mouth shut because I wasn't gonna be doing the 1000's if I had anything to say about it (the 1000's are 10 different sets of exercises nonstop for 100 reps which we had to do for punishment.Not paying attention or talking when Sensei is talking? It's The Thousands for you.I use this for my intermediate belts to this day,and I make my newbs...including the kids age like 6+...do The 20's to The 50's.Shuts them right up,too).I tell you what though...the one time I HAD TO DO The Thousands for punishment ( I was sparring and this kid nailed me with a cold hook kick,dropped me,and I got up and hammered him with a full force 3 punch combo and a was cranking the stomp kick for him while he was on the ground when my Uncle and Sensei intercepted me) I gotta tell you: I had a perverse enjoyment of it.Although I didn't enjoy doing Short 1 a hundred times in a row.I htought I had gotten off easy until I hit my 8th time through the kata nonstop.By my 15th time though I realized that my Uncle had hit me with special punishment because I was his nephew and he knew that I knew better; I'd've finished The Thousands LOOOONG before I finished poppin off Short 1 a hundred times running.This method also really reeeeaaalllly teaches you the meaning of willpower,perserverence,focus,and breaks through the wall of "I CAN'T" which we subliminally teach ourselves to accept on a daily basis.

At tournaments,we were extra fierce and extra disciplined.It was made clear to us that we represent our community,our parents,our school and to some extent our race every single time we stepped out into public...therefore no slackin off was allowed for any reason.I remember that we went to 136 tournaments straight with our people placing in the Top 3 of every category we competed in.Being down with the BKF,we met and spoke to and learned about our elders.We also witnessed firsthand the biased judging that skewed to the point of ridiculousness in point tourneys.I loved our style though...we showed more flash,panache,soul,skill and ferocity than most of our opposition ever did.I wanted to annihilate everyone else like my Kenpo elders and higher ranks did,but my Uncle insisted that I kept practicing those damn basics basics basics...and I wasn't about to say NO or complain because if there was one thing worse than The Thousands? It was taking a shot from my uncle...even when he was playing.But ohhh maaaannnn did I want to say NO when he told me:"You're going to compete in forms." I almost let my disappointment reach my face."Can I still fight?" "You will do both," my uncle told me with finality.The relief must've showed in my eyes,because he said:"You better leave your guts out there every single time son,or else..." ahhhhh daaaayyaaaaammmmnnn..."it's The Thousands for you.You slack off on a kata? 5 Thousand katas.You miss a block? 5 thousand blocks.You get the point."

I never lost a kata competition.Never missed a block.I started using The Thousands as my base training model before I was 9.Uncle Bobby noted this and upped the ante to The Ten Thousands.Ahhhhh daaaayaaaaammmn.Lol.

I use this method today with myself AND my students.

Gotta bounce now but I'll be back and finish this later.

 

[OKenpo942]

True about the grittier good ole days. I remember the true training beginning after class. The more "old school" minded students (this was in the mid 80s) would stay late after everyone else went home and fought. No points to be scored... I mean bare knuckle, bloody nosse and black eye fighting. This included fightinng with our, at that time 4th degree, instructor.

I remember one of my buddies getting thrown into a wall only to be pounced on by our instructor as he hit the floor in a heap. Yes, we fought on the ground back then.These were the good times. I'll never forget beating each other to a pulp only to hug each other at the end of the session and then going to our respective homes to heal up for the next night. My mother hated it, but I loved avery minute of it.

I don't hear about much of this going on these days. Too bad. Too many schools turning out "cookie-cutter" kenpoists these days. I realy miss those days.

Thanks for letting me share.

James

 

[ATACX GYM]

True about the grittier good ole days. I remember the true training beginning after class. The more "old school" minded students (this was in the mid 80s) would stay late after everyone else went home and fought. No points to be scored... I mean bare knuckle, bloody nosse and black eye fighting. This included fightinng with our, at that time 4th degree, instructor.

I remember one of my buddies getting thrown into a wall only to be pounced on by our instructor as he hit the floor in a heap. Yes, we fought on the ground back then.These were the good times. I'll never forget beating each other to a pulp only to hug each other at the end of the session and then going to our respective homes to heal up for the next night. My mother hated it, but I loved avery minute of it.

I don't hear about much of this going on these days. Too bad. Too many schools turning out "cookie-cutter" kenpoists these days. I realy miss those days.

Thanks for letting me share.

James

Thanks for sharing!! Man you brought back some memories with that one...

 

[LawDog]

There are still many Kenpo/Kempo "old schools" around and many of them have advanced within the tacticle and theory area's.
Modern times have spawned many of the yuppie or sport Kenpo/Kempo type of schools. If this is what a person wants to do then this is ok.
In our modern times there is something for everyone as long as they know what it is that they are training in.