kenpo techniques, shotokan kata

[lonecoyote]

I studied a system for a while that taught both kenpo techniques and shotokan kata and to be honest, it was problematic. I like shotokan okay, used to do it exclusively, but there were a few things that made it incompatible with kenpo. The two arts flow differently, have different blocks, or at least use them differently and and my instructor would have to tell me while doing some techniques that I needed not to block through so much as parry and use economy of motion to get to the strike quickly.

 

[KenpoTess]

Welcome to MT Lonecoyote.

Not sure if you're asking a question or looking for info.

~Tess
-MT S. Mod-

 

[lonecoyote]

Sorry, just wondering if anyone else has done this and had a problem with it. I just felt they were at cross purposes. Thanks

 

[molson]

I came to kenpo from a differant style and it did take me a while to loosen up and flow with kenpo blocks and techniques. Give it some time and let the kenpo principles sink in.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I studied a system for a while that taught both kenpo techniques and shotokan kata and to be honest, it was problematic. I like shotokan okay, used to do it exclusively, but there were a few things that made it incompatible with kenpo. The two arts flow differently, have different blocks, or at least use them differently and and my instructor would have to tell me while doing some techniques that I needed not to block through so much as parry and use economy of motion to get to the strike quickly.

Lonecoyote,
I would spend some time with parries. They have a lot to do with you physicaly getting off the line of attack. Parrying can be, simply, a bad idea in some cases. Especialy if you're dealing with great force. Play with sticky hands ideas to explore proper angles for heigth, width, and depth zone cancelation.
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

I studied a system that taught both kenpo techniques and shotokan kata, to be honest, it was problematic. I was just wondering if anyone else has had a problem with it. I just felt they were at cross purposes.

Yep........ like mixing Coke and 7-Up.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I did the same thing for a while...studied Kenpo primarily and took a Shotokan class to satisfy my college PE requirement. Very different timing and speed vs power emphasis. I suggest you learn to understand the intent of both the Kenpo parries/blocks and the Shotokan blocks. I think you'll find the speed of Kenpo blocks more effective in terms of not getting hit. But you can learn a lot from the power, positioning, and explosiveness of Shotokan blocks and strikes.

As Mr. C says above, like coke and 7-up...if you mix em, it won't taste good. But if you drink them separately at the same meal, you will definitely understand the flavor of each one better and you should be able to make a more informed decision about which one you like better.

 

[Touch Of Death]

First of all, Kenpo is neither 7-UP Or Coke, IT'S PEPSI! :asian:

 

[kenpoworks]

I studied shotokan and wado ryu before happening on kenpo (25 years ago), both great "styles" , i found that shoto kan stressed power first and the flow will come but wado stresed speed and flow first and the end result will be powerful.
Wado and shoto kan have been infused into my personal "style" of kenpo.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Years ago the Urquidez brothers practiced both arts, and blended them into a system they called "Kenpo Shotokan". They seemed to like the mix OK.

 

[kenpoworks]

Would that be of "Benny the Jet" fame,

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Would that be of "Benny the Jet" fame,

Yes, but I believe that older brother Arnold was the one who blended the styles for them. This was before Benny's Ukidokan system.

 

[kenpoworks]

Wow, is there a website that can "gen" me up on this.

 

[Goldendragon7]

As Mr. C says above, like coke and 7-up...if you mix em, it won't taste good. But if you drink them separately at the same meal, you will definitely understand the flavor of each one better and you should be able to make a more informed decision about which one you like better.

Well, to me it's not a case of which ONE is better.... but rather what useful or positive influences can I gain from this or that.

In my studies, which include: Kenpo (1st and foremost, my base art), Shotokan, Hapkido, TaeKwonDo, Judo, Aikaido, Northern Shaolin, Hung Gar, Won Hop Kuen Do, ChoyLiFut, WuShu, Escrima, Wrestling, Bjj, Boxing and others that I dabbled with (never studied any in depth other than American Kenpo) I found good elements in each. However, American Kenpo (with the linage and methods that I was instructed with) was the "Premier System" to study.

I find that Kenpo offers the best of all (If taught, understood and emphasized properly) ...... I liken American Kenpo to a diamond - it has many facets. Power striking (such as found in Shotokan or any of the main Japanese Arts), Kicking (as in any of the so called kicking arts), Re-direction or non striking actions (as in arts like Aikido, I found Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere by Westbrook and Oratti very interesting), Throws (as in Judo), Flowing combination movements and structure (as in most of the traditional Kung, Gung or Gong Fu Systems), Weapons work (Kali, Escrima and several of the Kung fur systems), Grappling movements (as in Wrestling or Bjj) as well as a well defined curriculum supported by a phenomenal knowledge base that is based on logic rather than tradition (not that we don't have our traditions) for these reasons I couldn't go anywhere else.

It all boils down to what exactly YOU personally are taught or what is emphasized in your particular studio or journey.... Contrary to popular belief....... Not All Kenpo is created equal...... :idunno: :supcool:

:asian:

 

[DavidCC]

I study Shaolin Kempo (Karazenpo branch) and teh founder of our style has also studied some Goju Ryu with Lou Angel. Therefore he has brought some of the Goju kata into our system. I've onlybeen training 2.5 years in tis one style, so I can't get too deep about what that influence is, exactly, on the rest of the system. I mean, I've learned one or 2 of teh goju kata and I can se some of the breakdowns from them in the self-def. techniques of the system, but how that compares to KGS or Villari or Cerio's (all inputs to this system) I can't really say... yet.

They do not appear to be contradictory, but then again Goju is both Go and Ju

 

[OC Kid]

I studied and got ranked in a system in washington state the used the japanese basics, kata (our katas are almost exactly like shotokan) deep stances ect. The self defense was based on kempo (they wont admit it ) It didnt have the exact same defense for every student for every rank but the techniques were the same but with a lot of power/ hip ect and not as many strikes for each situation. The sparring was very simular.
I moved to calif then started training with Bob White and todd mcHeney (He is now the owner of Dick Willets school and has been for about 15 years)

The only thing I had to adjust to was to soften the blocks and other techniques and learn the snap punches. Learn to work out of a nuetral bow which is not as deep as Zenkutsu Dachi. However the fwd bow is. The angles will come with training.

I teach the same type of system now. I will work give it time.

 

[lonecoyote]

Thanks everyone, lots of food for thought. Main problem is that my instructor back then didn't know or understand the kata applications, lot of people don't. So I was left with learning techniques and kata that didn't have anything to do with each other. He was good with Kenpo techniques, explaining principles, footwork, opposing forces, where the power came from, etc. but he was clueless about why we even did the Shotokan kata. Just for exercise, I suppose. so I felt the kata were useless. I've since learned that there are plenty of moves in there, but many don't know them. What I thought was some kind of a middle block is actually a wrist grab defense. Pretty good one too. So they could be integrated, I think, he just wasn't doing it

 

[Karazenpo]

I study Shaolin Kempo (Karazenpo branch) and teh founder of our style has also studied some Goju Ryu with Lou Angel. Therefore he has brought some of the Goju kata into our system. I've onlybeen training 2.5 years in tis one style, so I can't get too deep about what that influence is, exactly, on the rest of the system. I mean, I've learned one or 2 of teh goju kata and I can se some of the breakdowns from them in the self-def. techniques of the system, but how that compares to KGS or Villari or Cerio's (all inputs to this system) I can't really say... yet.

They do not appear to be contradictory, but then again Goju is both Go and Ju

Hi Dave, Yes, Goju seems to compliment Shaolin Kempo and Nick Cerio's Kenpo. I originally started in Okinawan Goju in 1973. Hanshi Craig Seavey (who brought me to black belt and beyond), is the current co-head of the Cerio organization and also studies Goju. I have learned a kata from him that seems to fit well into the kempo/kenpo systems. Shihan Mark Sheeley, formerly of Nick Cerio's Kenpo successfully combined both Kenpo and Shotokan in 1998 to develop what he calls Kensho ryu. Professor Cerio also had a love of Shotokan and had a working knowledge of Shotokan kata. Gm. S. Geroge Pesare also practiced Bassai and originally taught it to Prof. Cerio. My opinion is that it is difficult to be a Kenpo guy and a Shotokan guy at the same time although not as difficult as being Shotokan and Kung Fu. Gm. Pesare did say that some kenpo guys just don't look right when they do a Shotokan kata such as Bassai. My lineage, as yours, came from the original 'hard-style' method Kajukenbo and it is much easier for us to adapt to a Shotokan kata then the other way around. I think a Shotokan guy will always look Shotokan when performing a Kenpo kata and a kenpo guy will always look Kenpo when performing a Shotokan kata. By the way, I take it you're from Shihan Chris's school. I was just speaking to him last night on the phone. We've been sharing a lot of information and history over the last six months. Good guy, good luck and keep up your studies with him. Professor Joe