Kenpo salutation question

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi


...The first section of the salutation, every school of southern Chinese Gong fu does, i.e. Hong Jia Quan (Hung Gar), Cailifoquan (Choy Lay Fut), etc..

I mean the part that comes next, where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands (high), covered fist (mid) and prayer hands (low).

This order and style is found only in American Kenpo and Kosho-ryu. Mitose did it long before American was formed. So why is it done in American Kenpo?

Sanxiawuyi

P.S. I, like you, believe there was no kosho-ryu like stated in other post, but I think there is a link to Kusankun (also known as Koshokan and Koshankun). Mitose learned from somewhere!?

The Kenpo Exchange

:asian: [/B]

Dear san,
I realize that you want to use the pinyin translation for the chinese styles and occasionally the crown-wiles translation as well
Ts'ai Li fo/choy lay fut/Cai li fo and i think it's very comprehensive of you to do so...
I have explained on the kosho connection in an earlier post but i will detail it out later on in much more detail...
I think you are on the right track with kusanku's influence as well, but that is not where Mr. Parker got the idea to incorporate it into the full salutation.

I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/
:::getting off my soapbox:::
:soapbox:

 

[donald]

Doc,
This post is primarily aimed at you! I was looking over old post, and came across a one worded answer from you pointed at me! I made some comments about a Mitose/Parker connection, and asked for some clarification from some kenpo "seniors" as to whether I was speaking out of turn, or not. I am not sure what your response(which was "nope")meant. Please understand that this IS not an attempt to start any type of broughhaha. Just a somewhat curious fella out for a informational stroll.

Salute in Christ
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by donald
I was'nt aware that American kenpo's salutation was so different from other "Chinese" influenced arts. That linage is where I believe we get our full salute from. Not from the Kosho-Ryu . At the risk of starting a blizzard. I believe American kenpo's roots are invariably connected to Mr.Mitose, and to that of the aforementioned Kosho-Ryu systems. I say this because of all the historical data that bears this out. The art in Mr.Chow's hands grew, and changed. Just as it did in Mr.Parker's hands, and as it does in the hands of his students. Does this sound somewhat correct to some of the "seniors" out there? :asian:

this is the Quote that Doc responded to...... and he was saying "nope" to what you wrote, this does NOT sound somewhat correct.

:asian:

 

[WilliamTLear]

Nope,

Mr. Parker and Mr. Chow don't have any lineage to Mitose. While Doc and I have our differences (and that is often these days), I 100% agree with him on this topic. Nobody of any reputation will support the idea that Mitose taught Mr. Parker or Mr. Chow anything.

Hope that helps,
Billy Lear, UKS

 

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
Nope,

Mr. Parker and Mr. Chow don't have any lineage to Mitose. While Doc and I have our differences (and that is often these days), I 100% agree with him on this topic. Nobody of any reputation will support the idea that Mitose taught Mr. Parker or Mr. Chow anything.

Hope that helps,
Billy Lear, UKS

Dear Bill,
With all due respect, you are mistaken & you don't know what you are talking about in this matter.
William Chow's MAIN instructor in Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo was James Mitose! Thomas Young, Mitose's main assistant instructor, was the person who signed Chow's certificate, but it was Mitose that Chow got his main training from in Kenpo. Chow is prominently featured in all the group shots of the "official self defense club" in Hawaii. In the last written interview done with Chow, He clearly states that he got his main knowledge from Mitose and lists him as his instructor.
I have a good reputation on kenpo history and I will easily support the idea that Chow was trained in Kenpo by Mitose. I am not saying that Chow did not have other influences that contributed to the creation of what Chow would later call "Kara Ho", Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo is still the base. That is the main reason why the Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo salutaion is placed as the last part of the American Kenpo Salutation.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox:::
:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/

 

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Doc
The creed existed independent of physical interpretations. "Uncle Dave" (Ed Parkers "little brother") also contributed to the creed as well as drew the first patch.

Hi Doc!
The "Kenpo Creed" was not created by David Parker. The actual creator [per se] of the Creed was Ben Otake, who would later leave Mr. Parker and go to the Kyokushinkai organization of Mas Oyama.
There is an earlier karate creed that is somewhat similar to it, Perhaps Otake got the inspiration from that old creed.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox
:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Hi Doc!
The "Kenpo Creed" was not created by David Parker. The actual creator [per se] of the Creed was Ben Otake, who would later leave Mr. Parker and go to the Kyokushinkai organization of Mas Oyama.
There is an earlier karate creed that is somewhat similar to it, Perhaps Otake got the inspiration from that old creed.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox
:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/

Respectfully Joe,
Ben Otake left Mr.Parker to join Tak Kubota of Gosoku Ryu and he is still one of the seniors. It is possible that Mr. Otake had something to do with the creed, because the same creed is displayed in Mr. Kubota's Dojo.

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Billy,

Let's let those that were there shed some light from their different perspectives. We know what was written, and this may have been part of Mr. Parker's separating his "American" Kenpo from the other variations, even the ones that started with him.

I have an opinion, but it is just that. Some of these guys were around at the time and have little reason to try to influence us one way or the other. Unfortunatly there are a few that exaggerate or change things for their own benefit. The recent posts do not have that flavor, and the people making them are very reputable.

Oss,
-Michael
AKTS

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Respectfully Joe,
Ben Otake left Mr.Parker to join Tak Kubota of Gosoku Ryu and he is still one of the seniors. It is possible that Mr. Otake had something to do with the creed, because the same creed is displayed in Mr. Kubota's Dojo.

:asian:

Hey Peter T. Ben did indeed go over to Kubota and not Kyokushinkai, and with regard to the creed, the last time I talked to him he said he didn't have anymore to do with it than anybody else other than Parker. Many contributed "ideas" of what it could say, but as usual Ed Parker made the final decision and decided what it would be just like he did with everything else.

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Doc
Hey Peter T. Ben did indeed go over to Kubota and not Kyokushinkai, and with regard to the creed, the last time I talked to him he said he didn't have anymore to do with it than anybody else other than Parker. Many contributed "ideas" of what it could say, but as usual Ed Parker made the final decision and decided what it would be just like he did with everything else.

Sure Doc, he (Mr.Parker) was the BOSS and made the final decisions but a lot of works were done by his students as you know.

Respectfully.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Sure Doc, he (Mr.Parker) was the BOSS and made the final decisions but a lot of works were done by his students as you know.

Respectfully.

Absolutely. A lot of us contributed ideas and projects all the time. He used to send people to other schools and styles to "see" what they were doing. If you saw a good technique or idea he would say "Bring it back and let's see if we can use it." He continued that practice with next generations like Kelly, Planas, and continued it later with people like Conatser, Hancock. All of those "brainy" guys.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Hi Doc!
The "Kenpo Creed" was not created by David Parker.

I believe I said he "contributed."

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Dear Bill,
With all due respect, you are mistaken & you don't know what you are talking about in this matter.
William Chow's MAIN instructor in Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo was James Mitose! Thomas Young, Mitose's main assistant instructor, was the person who signed Chow's certificate, but it was Mitose that Chow got his main training from in Kenpo. Chow is prominently featured in all the group shots of the "official self defense club" in Hawaii. In the last written interview done with Chow, He clearly states that he got his main knowledge from Mitose and lists him as his instructor.
I have a good reputation on kenpo history and I will easily support the idea that Chow was trained in Kenpo by Mitose. I am not saying that Chow did not have other influences that contributed to the creation of what Chow would later call "Kara Ho", Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo is still the base. That is the main reason why the Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo salutaion is placed as the last part of the American Kenpo Salutation.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Clearly this is an area of controversy for some and I can only tell you what I know from my conversations with Mr. Parker and others, as well as from my personal experiences having met Mitose and seen him in person perform "techniques."

It is my opinion you are wrong as stated vehemently by Ed Parker himself. If he was misinformed or lying in your opinion, is not for me to say. When I had the opportunity to view Mitose "in action," it fully supported the "charlatan" label Ed Parker described. Clearly this man couldn't have taught anybody anything credible. Parker said the only thing he ever did was "teach' one form, but he never actually "performed it."

He described Mitose as a "good con man who only came to the mainland because his reputation in the islands was welll known." When he came to California he promptly attempted to get Ed Parker to enter into a con with him by creating a church to support his "Buddists Monk" persona he had in the islands. But he swiitched when he came here to a priest's collar and a big cross around his neck.

However as I, you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Respectfully Joe,
Ben Otake left Mr.Parker to join Tak Kubota of Gosoku Ryu and he is still one of the seniors. It is possible that Mr. Otake had something to do with the creed, because the same creed is displayed in Mr. Kubota's Dojo.

:asian:

Dear Peter,
Thank you for the correction regarding Ben Otake! Occasionally, I have a "brain cramp" and have to refer back to old notes and past posts i've written and researched.
Thank you again,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Doc
Hey Peter T. Ben did indeed go over to Kubota and not Kyokushinkai, and with regard to the creed, the last time I talked to him he said he didn't have anymore to do with it than anybody else other than Parker. Many contributed "ideas" of what it could say, but as usual Ed Parker made the final decision and decided what it would be just like he did with everything else.

Hi Doc!
I was watching old color film footage of Ben Otake breaking bricks and it stands to reason that he would go with Kubota. I also have IKC footage of Kubota doing his "Sledge Hammer" hand conditioning. Otake is listed in a magazine article as taking credit for coming up with the creed and I'll have to research exactly he's quoted as saying in the article.
Of course, Mr. Parker was always the last word on what stayed and what didn't in the system.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Doc
Clearly this is an area of controversy for some and I can only tell you what I know from my conversations with Mr. Parker and others, as well as from my personal experiences having met Mitose and seen him in person perform "techniques."

It is my opinion you are wrong as stated vehemently by Ed Parker himself. If he was misinformed or lying in your opinion, is not for me to say. When I had the opportunity to view Mitose "in action," it fully supported the "charlatan" label Ed Parker described. Clearly this man couldn't have taught anybody anything credible. Parker said the only thing he ever did was "teach' one form, but he never actually "performed it."

He described Mitose as a "good con man who only came to the mainland because his reputation in the islands was welll known." When he came to California he promptly attempted to get Ed Parker to enter into a con with him by creating a church to support his "Buddists Monk" persona he had in the islands. But he swiitched when he came here to a priest's collar and a big cross around his neck.

However as I, you are entitled to your opinion.

Hey Doc,
If you look at the old pics from the Hawaii days, you would see the picture of Christ in the background a well as Mitose holding a cross in his hand. Not a buddhist monk. Others have also stated that Mitose knew Martial Arts of Kenpo and Jujutsu. I have named these individuals in my previous posts, so no sense to repeat them. As a matter of fact Mr. Parker was the only person to rebut that. Everyone has a motif. Certainly Mr. Parker had his.
Chow's own brother taught Kosho-Ryu and was a senior of Danzan Ryu as well.
Minus Kenpo that was introduced by Miyagi and Yabu in the Islands, all the rest had ties to Mitose. All Hawaiian kenpo/Kempo factions, Kajukenbo and Kara-Ho.
I guess we just have to DUEL this out.
Love you man. Your place or mine?LOL

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Billy,

Let's let those that were there shed some light from their different perspectives. We know what was written, and this may have been part of Mr. Parker's separating his "American" Kenpo from the other variations, even the ones that started with him.

I have an opinion, but it is just that. Some of these guys were around at the time and have little reason to try to influence us one way or the other. Unfortunatly there are a few that exaggerate or change things for their own benefit. The recent posts do not have that flavor, and the people making them are very reputable.

Oss,
-Michael
AKTS

You've got it... turning to the east, and bowing three times. :asian: :asian: :asian:

 

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Doc
Clearly this is an area of controversy for some and I can only tell you what I know from my conversations with Mr. Parker and others, as well as from my personal experiences having met Mitose and seen him in person perform "techniques."

It is my opinion you are wrong as stated vehemently by Ed Parker himself. If he was misinformed or lying in your opinion, is not for me to say. When I had the opportunity to view Mitose "in action," it fully supported the "charlatan" label Ed Parker described. Clearly this man couldn't have taught anybody anything credible. Parker said the only thing he ever did was "teach' one form, but he never actually "performed it."

He described Mitose as a "good con man who only came to the mainland because his reputation in the islands was welll known." When he came to California he promptly attempted to get Ed Parker to enter into a con with him by creating a church to support his "Buddists Monk" persona he had in the islands. But he swiitched when he came here to a priest's collar and a big cross around his neck.

However as I, you are entitled to your opinion.

Dear Doc,
Unfortunately, you are not specific on who's opinion is wrong in this matter. However, for the sake of arguement, I'll presume you are addressing me and my statements.
I'm glad you are able to add your personal insights into this matter and your discussions with Mr. Parker as well as seeing Mitose demonstrate. Would you please elaborate on the times that you did see Mitose perform? I know that there were several times that Mitose did visit one of Mr. parker's studios on several occasions and according to Mr. Parker, tried to get him to "donate" to a "Kenpo Temple". I have spoken to Richard "Huk" Planas, who stated that "He wasn't impressed" and Steve Hearring, who stated that Mitose struck him with a "Nerve Strike" that Steve remembers to this day! This was from personal conversations with both men at different times.

I am well aware of Mr. Parker's opinion of Mitose and how He [mitose] tried to con him out of money. Mr. Parker also never trained with Mitose in Hawaii at any time in his trainiong. He trained with Prof. Chow and individuals like Adriano Emperado, who was his "senior" in Chow's Class at that time. However, Chow had indeed learned from Mitose and was awarded his Black Belt from Thomas Young and Mitose. Please remember Doc, the time frame and the limited ammount of Martial Arts that were available at that time. I'm reminded of the old adage "In the land of dwarfs, the midget is king!". If you are teaching people with no prior martial arts experience, and you have some [although perhaps limited] then you are top man on the totem pole. the form he taught was "naihanchin" and most of his book was a plagarized attempt from a karate text from a man named mutsu, including the photos of Mutsu breaking tiles and Motobu's pic.

Mitose covered his numerous "religious" guises by stating the phrase "when i'm among christians, i'm a christian, when i'm among buddhists, i'm a buddhist." allegedly, he was a buddhist originally and later became a protestant [sp] minister.

I have seen the details of the court transcript and other past charge/rap sheets on Mitose so I can vouch for his "dubious" past.

If I am wrong regarding you addressing me regarding this you have my apologies but I am stating facts as I know them regarding the lineage of the kenpo systems/styles.

I hope that i was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Dear Doc,
Unfortunately, you are not specific on who's opinion is wrong in this matter. However, for the sake of arguement, I'll presume you are addressing me and my statements.
I'm glad you are able to add your personal insights into this matter and your discussions with Mr. Parker as well as seeing Mitose demonstrate. Would you please elaborate on the times that you did see Mitose perform? I know that there were several times that Mitose did visit one of Mr. parker's studios on several occasions and according to Mr. Parker, tried to get him to "donate" to a "Kenpo Temple". I have spoken to Richard "Huk" Planas, who stated that "He wasn't impressed" and Steve Hearring, who stated that Mitose struck him with a "Nerve Strike" that Steve remembers to this day! This was from personal conversations with both men at different times.

I am well aware of Mr. Parker's opinion of Mitose and how He [mitose] tried to con him out of money. Mr. Parker also never trained with Mitose in Hawaii at any time in his trainiong. He trained with Prof. Chow and individuals like Adriano Emperado, who was his "senior" in Chow's Class at that time. However, Chow had indeed learned from Mitose and was awarded his Black Belt from Thomas Young and Mitose. Please remember Doc, the time frame and the limited ammount of Martial Arts that were available at that time. I'm reminded of the old adage "In the land of dwarfs, the midget is king!". If you are teaching people with no prior martial arts experience, and you have some [although perhaps limited] then you are top man on the totem pole. the form he taught was "naihanchin" and most of his book was a plagarized attempt from a karate text from a man named mutsu, including the photos of Mutsu breaking tiles and Motobu's pic.

Mitose covered his numerous "religious" guises by stating the phrase "when i'm among christians, i'm a christian, when i'm among buddhists, i'm a buddhist." allegedly, he was a buddhist originally and later became a protestant [sp] minister.

I have seen the details of the court transcript and other past charge/rap sheets on Mitose so I can vouch for his "dubious" past.

If I am wrong regarding you addressing me regarding this you have my apologies but I am stating facts as I know them regarding the lineage of the kenpo systems/styles.

I hope that i was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/

Dear Joe,
Everything you stated was correct. He was still the top man as far as the lineage thing goes. That is exactly my point. you can disown your family, but you are still in their lineage, like it or not.
"you kill one you are a murderer, you kill thousands and you are a conquerer"


Respectfully,

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Hey Doc,
If you look at the old pics from the Hawaii days, you would see the picture of Christ in the background a well as Mitose holding a cross in his hand. Not a buddhist monk. Others have also stated that Mitose knew Martial Arts of Kenpo and Jujutsu. I have named these individuals in my previous posts, so no sense to repeat them. As a matter of fact Mr. Parker was the only person to rebut that. Everyone has a motif. Certainly Mr. Parker had his.
Chow's own brother taught Kosho-Ryu and was a senior of Danzan Ryu as well.
Minus Kenpo that was introduced by Miyagi and Yabu in the Islands, all the rest had ties to Mitose. All Hawaiian kenpo/Kempo factions, Kajukenbo and Kara-Ho.
I guess we just have to DUEL this out.
Love you man. Your place or mine?LOL

Hell are you kidding? My place. And bring a couple of Pepsi's.