Kenpo Principles applied in grappling situations

[KenpoTess]

Let's hear from some newer members if they implement their Kenpo into grappling or other ground scenarios.

 

[eyebeams]

Historically, striking arts assume that the practitioner already knows how to grapple. This is true in the Chinese and Japanese/Okinawan roots of most ken/mpo styles. Okinawan martial arts were usually practiced by people familiar with tegumi (Okinawan grappling, which is mistaken for a style of sumo these days, even though it uses totally different rules). See http://seinenkai.com/art-sumo.html . It was a part of the tradition that got to Hawaii and no doubt informed early kenpo. This was probably something that is problematic now, because many of us now study kenpo as our first fighting system, wheras early kenpo was supplemental to grappling and basic fighting ability learned in childhood. So I suspect that grappling is only a problem for folks now because earlier generations thought it was such common knowledge that they didn't bother to actually encode any of it. This was probably accentuated by the strong presence of Okazaki jujutsu and judo; every early martial artist was expected to have a working knowledge of grappling systems, so the only stuff worth encoding in a system (like Chow kempo or Kajukenbo) supplemented the asumed grappling base. It did not cover it because that would have been redundant.

The upshot of this is that you aren't going "outside" of your style when you study grappling. Instead, you're acquiring the common knowledge you were expected to have in the first place.

 

[jdinca]

I'm definitely not a Kenpo expert either, but basic philosophy is to end it before it gets to the ground. If someone is willing to duck his head and take his eyes off of you to tackle you, well, thanks for taking your eye off the ball. A quick upward chop to the throat while you do a hammer fist to the back of his neck will work nicely, as an example. Or stepping back into a low horse stance and doing an elbow smash to the temple.

As for grappling, it seems to be only good for one opponent. What's a grappler going to do when a second attacker is kicking the living @*$% out of him while he's got attacker #1 in a submission hold? One well connected kick to the head, ribs, groin and it's all she wrote.

Once on the ground, it's gouge, kick, bite time. Ground techniques do appear to be a kenpo weakness, though.

Speed and a stable base are your friends.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Don't forget, not all grapplers are lame on the stand up gig; so, if you so much as falter they can take you down while you struggle to right yourself. If you are up against a skilled fighter, you're up against a skilled fighter; so a little preparedness goes a long way.
Sean

 

[jdinca]

Don't forget, not all grapplers are lame on the stand up gig; so, if you so much as falter they can take you down while you struggle to right yourself. If you are up against a skilled fighter, you're up against a skilled fighter; so a little preparedness goes a long way.
Sean

Good point.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

the system of kempo i studied has plenty of groundfighting and jujutsu "techniques".
Someone who is skilled at shooting can usually pick a moment to take you down and you wont realise it until the back of your head is hitting the ground.
As for multiple opponents......any type of fighting on the ground makes no sense.....but then one would also be making the assumption that lying on the ground is the focus of Jujutsu.

 

[rziriak]

Let's hear from some newer members if they implement their Kenpo into grappling or other ground scenarios.

I am studying in a Jeff Speakman school in Eureka and he is working with some of his Black Belts to form a curriculum to address the issues of grappling. We are looking at new techs called collapsing wedge, opposing circles, thrusting knee, etc... We are addressing the issues of an opponent in the process of shooting in verses the opponent has already shot in and has you held tight and getting ready to drop you. Mr. Speakman is also creating some techs that are more offensive verses defensive. Last night we were working some of these techs in our school and had great fun with it. Anyway, I feel it is important to address the mixed MA since it seems to be the craze. Street fighting has certainly changed over the years and needs to be addressed if we are to continually be able to defend ourselves.

I'm done rambling.

 

[MJS]

I am studying in a Jeff Speakman school in Eureka and he is working with some of his Black Belts to form a curriculum to address the issues of grappling. We are looking at new techs called collapsing wedge, opposing circles, thrusting knee, etc... We are addressing the issues of an opponent in the process of shooting in verses the opponent has already shot in and has you held tight and getting ready to drop you. Mr. Speakman is also creating some techs that are more offensive verses defensive. Last night we were working some of these techs in our school and had great fun with it. Anyway, I feel it is important to address the mixed MA since it seems to be the craze. Street fighting has certainly changed over the years and needs to be addressed if we are to continually be able to defend ourselves.

I'm done rambling.

Sounds like some interesting stuff! I'm interested in hearing how the techs. that you've been working on differ from the ones that are already in the EPAK system that address an attempted low grab, etc.

Mike

 

[Rick Wade]

As a student of the UKF you have to consider and understand the Eight Stages of Engagement

Quote UKF website
" 5. Physical Body Control Manipulation
The contoured physical state of controlling your opponents actions by canceling all his dimensions. Common terms of wrestling and grappling are applicable. Locks and hugs. A constant physical attachment with your opponent, maneuvering to tactical advantage and to physically dominate. Energies are united and harmony with the universe has been established. Spirit domination is conjoined to one's control. The wind pushes the sail on course, charts are plotted and manifest. All control of your opponent has been dominated. And as the wind passes, the aftermath and the void of wind has energy as the sail bellows in anticipation.
6. Control Manipulation Maintenance

Physically controlled state of opponent domination as survey is made of the environment. The process of attachment and tactical arrangement of your four ring domination. Assessment of the conscious level of your enemy. Decision to inaugurate a new attack is determined. From survey of the physical plane, and survey of the enemy's state of life and the ability to retaliate an offensive attack. The course is set, the sail full and in control.
7. Control Manipulation Release

The physical release of your opponent in a tactical advantage for you, and canceling his ability to gain advantage on you. Capture your energy for complete control. Disengaging harmony from your opponent, remove the wind. Mission complete. Resolved. If no contact made, victory. If death is created, molecular change begins. Fill your sail and inhale as you exhale the bad wind, life.

8. Extraction

The physical maneuvers that places you in an expanded tactical area of response, and the maximum distance from danger without compromise, gaining physical visual control of your environment. Personal search of your body for injury. Attachment with your way, gathering back the loose lines, focus in on the journey as seen and lived. Expanding back in, conjoining destiny and circumstance, nothing personal is lost, acceptance of unfolding events and digestion of the resultant."

We have to remember that when we talk about Kenpo in the sense of grappling; I think most of think the techniques will not work because we are playing within the rules of grappling in which locks chokes are all applied. Now if we switch it around, and say “when we talk about grappling in the sense of Kenpo”. We start looking ate grappling inside of Kenpo the first technique in Yellow belt "delayed sword" in which 90% of you l would call the left hand a precautionary check you can use that hand to GRAB the right wrist of your opponent and then when you cover out you can use your right arm to do a top to bottom arm break at the elbow.

I like to work out with all kinds of grapplers but I have found very few that are willing to strike. One important fact short of guys like the ones in the UFC I have found very few that want to forgo the rules and let me strike and kick. I had one guy to get me in an ankle lock and then he asked me what I would do then? I did a double strike on his trapezoids and he was spread eagle on the mat.

V/R

Rick English

 

[jazkiljok]

/FONT][/COLOR]UFC I have found very few that want to forgo the rules and let me strike and kick. I had one guy to get me in an ankle lock and then he asked me what I would do then? I did a double strike on his trapezoids and he was spread eagle on the mat.

V/R

Rick English
[/QUOTE]

having a hard time visualizing that move...

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/anklelock/

 

[Rick Wade]

/FONT][/color]UFC I have found very few that want to forgo the rules and let me strike and kick. I had one guy to get me in an ankle lock and then he asked me what I would do then? I did a double strike on his trapezoids and he was spread eagle on the mat.

V/R

Rick English

having a hard time visualizing that move...

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/anklelock/[/quote]

My apologies thank for the education.

He shot in on me I was in a right forward stance stepped back into a left front stance.

He locked up my right ankle with his left hand and then applied pressure to my right knee with his right forearm to take me down.

I don't know what that is called but it did put allot of pressure on my knee.

However I do like that website I will be studying it more.

Thanks again

Rick

I don’t know a lot about rolling but I want to learn to accent what I already know I don’t want to learn by saying forget everything you know this is right.

V/R

Rick

 

[arnisador]

If he had applied the ankle lock all the way immediately rather than waiting, you'd be hobbling. Ankle and knee locks can leave you exposed to a counter...that's why, in practice, you apply them right away.

 

[Rick Wade]

Don't get me wrong it hurt like a mother.

but when i knew what was coming it was pretty easy to defend against.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I want a guy that wants to strike that has a good background in grappling.

V/R

Rick

 

[jazkiljok]

well, that's what i'd call a take down, and we do that particular one in kenpo as well-- a lock is the aftermath and once applied, well good luck and good night. entry is the weak point of any attack which is american kenpo's strength-- all defense techs are designed to stop entry. i would think that it is even easier to defend when the attack is pre announced --unless of course you're up against billy jack ...

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

having a hard time visualizing that move...

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/anklelock/

My apologies thank for the education.

He shot in on me I was in a right forward stance stepped back into a left front stance.

He locked up my right ankle with his left hand and then applied pressure to my right knee with his right forearm to take me down.

I don't know what that is called but it did put allot of pressure on my knee.

However I do like that website I will be studying it more.

Thanks again

Rick

I don’t know a lot about rolling but I want to learn to accent what I already know I don’t want to learn by saying forget everything you know this is right.

V/R

Rick
[/quote]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you look closely at Dance of Death you'll see this lock, or a version of it. There's also an available heel hook when you flip them for the extension. I thought it was obvious to everyone but I guess not LOL.

DarK LorD

 

[rziriak]

Sounds like some interesting stuff! I'm interested in hearing how the techs. that you've been working on differ from the ones that are already in the EPAK system that address an attempted low grab, etc.

Mike

Ah, now I'm at a disadvantage. I'm not sure what is already being incorporated. However, what we are studying is when the opponent shoots in and tries to suck in your hips in a typical takedown. Thrusting knee starts with the defender in a left neutral bow. As the attacker shoots in the defender wedges the head against his chest elimating the opponents height. Immediately thrust the rear knee, right knee, in the attackers face with a form of guided collision landing in a left fighting stance. Upper cut with the left fist still maintaining control of the attacker with the right hand on the attackers neck. Then execute a shin kick to the attackers right inner thigh and cross out. Hopefully this describes it well enough.

More to come.

 

[MJS]

Ah, now I'm at a disadvantage. I'm not sure what is already being incorporated. However, what we are studying is when the opponent shoots in and tries to suck in your hips in a typical takedown. Thrusting knee starts with the defender in a left neutral bow. As the attacker shoots in the defender wedges the head against his chest elimating the opponents height. Immediately thrust the rear knee, right knee, in the attackers face with a form of guided collision landing in a left fighting stance. Upper cut with the left fist still maintaining control of the attacker with the right hand on the attackers neck. Then execute a shin kick to the attackers right inner thigh and cross out. Hopefully this describes it well enough.

More to come.

Cool!! Thanks for the reply and I'll be looking to hear more from you!:ultracool

Another question for you. Are the techniques that are already in the system still being used, or have the new ones replaced them? If so, have they been modified in any way?

Mike

 

[Making the Journey]

Body alignment or "pung" seems to work well... for instance if you're pinned down, moving the pelvic oval into different alignments can help out