Kenpo Jujitsu? Is this the original art of Kenpo?

[Danjo]

from what I understand of Mr. Mitose, from what little I know of what our system has pulled in from him, it seems that he was going down a path that required the willingness to put aside quick gains for further gains down the road. On a superficial level, for someone who doesn't understand the method, it can appear unimpressive. But when it's done well, by someone of high skill, it can be very effective.

If the Hawaiians of post-1940s, including Chow, didn't dig into what he was doing, it wouldn't surprise me that they would have rejected it.

And I'm not trying to diminish what people like Chow were doing either. Everyone chooses their own path, and Chow was very very good. I'm not saying that Mitose's path was better. I'm not trying to elevate him above anyone else.

I'm only saying that Mr. Mitose represented another path, and for those who have chosen to follow it and study it, it does lead to great benefits.

That's always been my point in this debate that always seems to rear its head from time to time. I simply believe that writing off Mitose as a no-account, is myopic. I think he had some good things to contribute, and he did contribute in his own way. But I also understand that many people did not choose his way, and in fact chose to disassociate from him. As I stated earlier, given his criminal troubles and his (possibly pushy) religious leanings, I would have probably done the same. But that doesn't mean he had nothing to offer, for those who were receptive to him.

My point in stating the opinons of those various people is that it is unlikely that they would all share the same need to bash Mitose when they don't seem to need to bash each other. I doubt that they would all come to the same conclusion unless it were true.

I have heard the argument that Mitose was some grand master who hid his true art and one had to get to a high level of understanding to appreciate it. I have also heard that Count Dante and Frank Dux fought in death matches, Larry Tatum can throw chi-sparks across the street to a phone pole, and that Pai Mei could balance himself on the tip of an outstretched sword. There is no evidence for it though, and what evidence there is points to the contrary.

 

[celtic_crippler]

My point in stating the opinons of those various people is that it is unlikely that they would all share the same need to bash Mitose when they don't seem to need to bash each other. I doubt that they would all come to the same conclusion unless it were true.

I have heard the argument that Mitose was some grand master who hid his true art and one had to get to a high level of understanding to appreciate it. I have also heard that Count Dante and Frank Dux fought in death matches, Larry Tatum can throw chi-sparks across the street to a phone pole, and that Pai Mei could balance himself on the tip of an outstretched sword. There is no evidence for it though, and what evidence there is points to the contrary.

Tatum can't throw chi-sparks? :shock: lol

 

[Flying Crane]

My point in stating the opinons of those various people is that it is unlikely that they would all share the same need to bash Mitose when they don't seem to need to bash each other. I doubt that they would all come to the same conclusion unless it were true.

or they were disinterested in what he was doing, and wrote him off without understanding it. As I stated above, it's understandable, and had I been in that group at that time, I would probably have done so myself.

I have heard the argument that Mitose was some grand master who hid his true art and one had to get to a high level of understanding to appreciate it. I have also heard that Count Dante and Frank Dux fought in death matches, Larry Tatum can throw chi-sparks across the street to a phone pole, and that Pai Mei could balance himself on the tip of an outstretched sword. There is no evidence for it though, and what evidence there is points to the contrary.

well, I don't push the grandmaster thing too heavily. I suspect the history there is foggy enough that it's really kind of unknown for sure, so I just sort of leave that part of it alone. Then again, if his family had an art that was passed down and he inherited it, I guess that would make him the grandmaster.

However, I do know that he had some good things to offer, like the healing methods which I have begun to learn, and that gives your martial understanding a big boost as well. The physical methods are also quite useful, if you really understand it.

Ted Sumner probably understands these issues about as well as anyone, and his knowledge and ability is second to none. Ted actually pioneered the reclamation of the healing arts back into our system. This is something that Mitose practiced and taught, as he saw kenpo as a complete lifestyle, and not just a fighting art. This is a perspective that I think a lot of people didn't share, at least not on the same level, or as all-inclusively as he did. At any rate, most people who Mitose taught did not learn the healing methods, and it was lost from most kenpo lineages.

Ted was a student of Seig Kufferath, who was a friend of Mitose and spoke highly of him. Seig was a student of Danzan Ryu under Okazaki. Okazaki was famous as a healer in Hawaii, and Seig learned his method, and Ted learned it from Seig. Seig told Ted that Mitose's method was very similar to what Seig was practicing and teaching to Ted. Of course Seig also said, "our method was a bit better tho..", which is to be expected. But in this way, Ted brought a very very similar healing method back into our system. I've had the method done on me, and I've been learning to do it myself. It is very effective for certain kinds of problems, being a very rigourous (read: downright painful) method of full body massage that helps the body heal from injuries and pulled muscles and such. And the hands-on knowledge of nerve anatomy that comes with learning this method is extremely useful in the fighting arts aspect of our system.

Now, bringing Count Dante and Frank Dux into the discussion, and talking about throwing Chi sparks across the room and such just cheapens the whole discussion. You are better than that, sir.

 

[Carol]

But I also understand that many people did not choose his way, and in fact chose to disassociate from him. As I stated earlier, given his criminal troubles and his (possibly pushy) religious leanings, I would have probably done the same. But that doesn't mean he had nothing to offer, for those who were receptive to him.

Dissociation is the key. Perhaps there are folks (in general) that either didn't or don't want to say something in support of a person like Mitose out of fear that they will be perceived as someone that supports all of what he did.

 

[Flying Crane]

Dissociation is the key. Perhaps there are folks (in general) that either didn't or don't want to say something in support of a person like Mitose out of fear that they will be perceived as someone that supports all of what he did.

bingo. nail on the head there. thx.

 

[Danjo]

Now, bringing Count Dante and Frank Dux into the discussion, and talking about throwing Chi sparks across the room and such just cheapens the whole discussion. You are better than that, sir.

Actually I am pointing out something very similar. They all have fervent followers who claim to believe everything that they said. Legends are a slippery slope when discussing them publicly. It's often difficult to tell where the objective truth ends and the stories begin. It's one thing to believe the legends yourself and tell them to your students, but it is going to be very difficult to get the larger public to believe them in the face of better documented evidence to the contrary.

To me, there is little difference between the legends of Count Dante, Frank Dux and Mitose. On the factual side, we know that they were all practicing martial artists at some point. We have those that saw them demonstrate their prowess and we find that what people saw was very normal and human. Then we have the legends. The things that no one really saw, but rather heard tell of from others. In these legends, these people were nearly superhuman in their abilities and knowledge. They passed down hidden secrets, and fought secret Tong death matches etc. It is in the area of these legends that their followers (I don't say students, but followers) get the most fervent about when it comes to defending them. It takes on a cult-like character and the true accomplishments of the person get lost in the mix. It is the defense of these legends, that cause others to dismiss these people entirely. Too bad really.

 

[Carol]

Tatum can't throw chi-sparks? :shock:

Ask Jill.... :lol:

 

[Flying Crane]

Actually I am pointing out something very similar. They all have fervent followers who claim to believe everything that they said. Legends are a slippery slope when discussing them publicly. It's often difficult to tell where the objective truth ends and the stories begin. It's one thing to believe the legends yourself and tell them to your students, but it is going to be very difficult to get the larger public to believe them in the face of better documented evidence to the contrary.

To me, there is little difference between the legends of Count Dante, Frank Dux and Mitose. On the factual side, we know that they were all practicing martial artists at some point. We have those that saw them demonstrate their prowess and we find that what people saw was very normal and human. Then we have the legends. The things that no one really saw, but rather heard tell of from others. In these legends, these people were nearly superhuman in their abilities and knowledge. They passed down hidden secrets, and fought secret Tong death matches etc. It is in the area of these legends that their followers (I don't say students, but followers) get the most fervent about when it comes to defending them. It takes on a cult-like character and the true accomplishments of the person get lost in the mix. It is the defense of these legends, that cause others to dismiss these people entirely. Too bad really.

ah, well the tone looked to me like you were putting up a whole group for ridicule. Maybe a better practice is to leave the sacred cows of others alone.

I get tired of the ridicule that gets thrown at some people, while others are off-limits for some reason. Mitose takes a lot of heat when his name gets brought up. But I know several people who felt that Mr. Parker sucked bad (and no, these are not Tracy people; they are people from other kenpo lineages tracing directly to Chow, as well as people outside of kenpo who knew him in Hawaii). If I started throwing comments around to perpetuate this view, I can tell you that just about every single kenpo guy on this forum would be jumping down my throat, and most people would be saying things like "it's disgraceful to speak badly of him when he's not here to defend himself", and I agree with that. But Mitose isn't here to defend himself either. Why do some people feel he is a fair target for ridicule?

Different lineages trace the source of their information in their own way. Some people went one way, some went another. Some people associate with this guy, others with that. And the funny thing is, they all are pretty solid so clearly nobody has the monopoly on good material, regardless of where they got it.

When people think that they can make a statement utterly denouncing what someone had to offer, particularly when that person is long since dead and gone, I smell bull-****. I don't question the expriences that someone may have had, but that in no way fills in the complete picture. There is always more to the story, and it shouldn't take a whole lot of reflection to recognize that.

 

[Danjo]

ah, well the tone looked to me like you were putting up a whole group for ridicule. Maybe a better practice is to leave the sacred cows of others alone.

I get tired of the ridicule that gets thrown at some people, while others are off-limits for some reason. Mitose takes a lot of heat when his name gets brought up. But I know several people who felt that Mr. Parker sucked bad (and no, these are not Tracy people; they are people from other kenpo lineages tracing directly to Chow, as well as people outside of kenpo who knew him in Hawaii). If I started throwing comments around to perpetuate this view, I can tell you that just about every single kenpo guy on this forum would be jumping down my throat, and most people would be saying things like "it's disgraceful to speak badly of him when he's not here to defend himself", and I agree with that. But Mitose isn't here to defend himself either. Why do some people feel he is a fair target for ridicule?

Different lineages trace the source of their information in their own way. Some people went one way, some went another. Some people associate with this guy, others with that. And the funny thing is, they all are pretty solid so clearly nobody has the monopoly on good material, regardless of where they got it.

When people think that they can make a statement utterly denouncing what someone had to offer, particularly when that person is long since dead and gone, I smell bull-****. I don't question the expriences that someone may have had, but that in no way fills in the complete picture. There is always more to the story, and it shouldn't take a whole lot of reflection to recognize that.

Well, Mitose is a special case I guess. Parker, for instance, doesn't have a trial transcript spelling out all kinds of vile behavior. Nor are there photos of Parker wearing a Catholic priest collar collecting donations etc.

Much of the negative press about Parker comes from a man who was himself convicted (along with his wife) of running a brothel under the banner of religion (he claimed his wife was a godess and that the acolytes were to have sex with her as part of their religion). Coincidentally, this is also the primary source for the more esoteric stuff about Mitose and his sisters. Given the public record of Mitose's character and his known scams as well as the public record of his main defender and promoter, I think it doesn't take much to see why Mitose comes under greater scrutiny than Ed Parker or others. It's also why most dismiss this fellow's negative claims about Parker.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, Mitose is a special case I guess. Parker, for instance, doesn't have a trial transcript spelling out all kinds of vile behavior. Nor are there photos of Parker wearing a Catholic priest collar collecting donations etc.

Much of the negative press about Parker comes from a man who was himself convicted (along with his wife) of running a brothel under the banner of religion (he claimed his wife was a godess and that the acolytes were to have sex with her as part of their religion). Coincidentally, this is also the primary source for the more esoteric stuff about Mitose and his sisters. Given the public record of Mitose's character and his known scams as well as the public record of his main defender and promoter, I think it doesn't take much to see why Mitose comes under greater scrutiny than Ed Parker or others. It's also why most dismiss this fellow's negative claims about Parker.

So what? Do two wrongs make a right?

Mitose's criminal troubles are a completely separate issue from his martial issues.

Why is this coming back to Will Tracy again? You want to rehash all that yet again? How many times have you and I done that already? Do you want to do it again?

As I stated in my last post, I have sources unconnected to any of the Tracys (in addition to the interview with Chow where he states that Parker was only a poor purple belt) that have stated that Parker was no good. I'm not interested in perpetuating that point of view because I'm sophisticated enough to see that it's just someone's opinion and likely doesn't represent the whole picture, and it's probably politically or personally motivated and isn't objective, so it's likely bull-****.

No, Mitose is not a special case. He was who he was, and he's dead and gone. Some people feel that they got some good material from him, others do not. That's really all there is to it. Trying to turn this into something more than that is just gonna result in you and I having the same argument over and over. I say we bury it so deep it never comes up again because I'm rather sick of it. It's tedious to have the same argument yet again, and in the end we all walk away with the same opinion anyway.

You don't have to get the warm fuzzies for Mitose. I don't give two ***** one way or the other how you or anyone else feels about him and in spite of the examples I've given, I don't care if I have failed to convince you. But I do expect you to have simple respect for the fact that other people feel he had something to offer. And when people start posting negative things on the forum, it starts the fight all over again. Let the dead horse stay dead.

 

[Danjo]

So what? Do two wrongs make a right?

Mitose's criminal troubles are a completely separate issue from his martial issues.

Why is this coming back to Will Tracy again? You want to rehash all that yet again? How many times have you and I done that already? Do you want to do it again?

I think you're missing the point. A person's character DOES have a lot to do with how credible they are. All that we have to go by aside from the historically verifiable wittensses of Mitose's ability is his own words and those of Will Tracy. Both are convicted felons, and the stuff that Will was convicted for was out of this world crazy. Why would ANYONE ever believe what he had to say on any subject?

If you say that Mitose's criminal issues are seperate from his "martial issues" I would agree until you start once again asserting that he inherited his art from his family and that he had esoteric things to teach. Once you do that, you once again take things into an area where we are relying on Mitose's (and Will Tracy's) word for things. When we are forced to do that, then it is important to look at the reliability of those we are being asked to believe.

If we stick with the known facts about Mitose's skill, then we can avoid discussion of his character, or of the character of his supporters in these legends. If you go back through the recent posts, you'll see I did that until you started making the unverifiable claims regarding him again.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I think the real lesson here is to not put anyone on a pedestal. Even the "greats" were human and started out like everybody else.

There's lots of great instructors and innovators in the past as well as today. Seek them out for what they can offer in regards to helping you improve, but never deify them.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think you're missing the point. A person's character DOES have a lot to do with how credible they are. All that we have to go by aside from the historically verifiable wittensses of Mitose's ability is his own words and those of Will Tracy. Both are convicted felons, and the stuff that Will was convicted for was out of this world crazy. Why would ANYONE ever believe what he had to say on any subject?

If you say that Mitose's criminal issues are seperate from his "martial issues" I would agree until you start once again asserting that he inherited his art from his family and that he had esoteric things to teach. Once you do that, you once again take things into an area where we are relying on Mitose's (and Will Tracy's) word for things. When we are forced to do that, then it is important to look at the reliability of those we are being asked to believe.

If we stick with the known facts about Mitose's skill, then we can avoid discussion of his character, or of the character of his supporters in these legends. If you go back through the recent posts, you'll see I did that until you started making the unverifiable claims regarding him again.

no, you've missed the point altogether.

The only point i've been trying to make here is that some people got something good from him, and I've been working with people who are the recipients of that information. That's where my experience lies. I actually don't care one way or the other about his criminal troubles or his religious leanings, and neither do I care one way or the other about what Will Tracy has to say. Those points are really irrelevant to this discussion.

If you don't like him, I've got no problem with that. If you and your people wish to disassociate from him, I've got no problem with that. If you know people who had negative experiences with him, I've got no problem with that.

If you try to tell the world that he had nothing to offer and was simply no good, that's where I've got a problem, and that's where I'll call you on it.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the real lesson here is to not put anyone on a pedestal. Even the "greats" were human and started out like everybody else.

There's lots of great instructors and innovators in the past as well as today. Seek them out for what they can offer in regards to helping you improve, but never deify them.

I agree, and I don't think i've ever tried to put Mitose up on a pedestal.

I've said about 3 or 4 times now, I probably would have disassociated from him myself, if I had known him. He had real problems, and I don't deny that.

 

[Twin Fist]

they didnt even MAKE purple belts when Parker was training under Chow, so that old quote from Chow about parker being a purple belt is clearly Bullshido

FC, we get it, you are invested in Tracy Kenpo, a fine system in and of itself

But history IS history, you cant change it.

The 3 mouseketeers left their instructor, then betrayed and slandered him. In some attempt to create a legitimate lineage for themselves they alligned themselves with a con man and murderer.

thats history, it cant be changed.

The sad part is, they didnt need to. No one really disputes that Al and Jim Tracy were Masters. They were. Will i dont know enough about to comment on his skill level. They didnt HAVE to go searching for a lineage.They didnt HAVE to spend 40 years dissing Ed Parker.

And 40 years of this "we are the only source for TRUE KENPO just gets old.

there is NO true kenpo

Chow changed what Mitose taught

Emperado changed with Chow taught, so did Parker, and Castro and Kuoha.

Hell, the Tracy's changed what Parker taught.

now mind you, that doesnt take away from the SYSTEM, which no one really denies is a full, complete system, viable, with great depth

but come on, you cant blame people for telling the TRUTH.

 

[Carol]

Mitose brought his personal issues on himself. But now that his personal life has been (deservedly) discredited once again, what about his Kempo?

My FMA instructor and I attended a two day Kosho Ryu Kempo seminar with Hashi Juchnik. I see more adulation online of folks like Mr. Tatum and Mr. Gaje than I heard fromm Mr. Juchnik. He spoke favorably of his teaching much like many folks speak favorably of their own teachers.

This was one of a few seminars that I attended with my own instructor because I can't decode information from seminars well, and I wanted his help in breaking the material down for me.

The seminar proceeded with Mr. Juchnik demonstrating a technique, then havning us practice it. My instructor would watch me try what was being taught...such as pointing your shoulder in a direction where you were trying to leap..

He would then ask "Did it work? (Did I jump farther, as Mr. Juchnik said I would?)

When I said yes, he would then quiz me with "Do you know why it worked?" He would challenge me to figure out the mechanics. If I couldn't, he would then explain why. Mechanically, what was being taught appeared to be sound. One move was essentially a one-inch punch, another was was a set of moves that some FMAists practice as a rope form.

Mr. Juchnik has been a colorful figure in his own right, but at least in my interaction with him, I found him to be very helpful and respectful. I arrived at the seminar with an FMA shirt on from my old school but he regarded us with the same respect he gave to Sensei Bonk's students. We weren't the only FMAists there, either, but everyone in attendance was polite and respectful to one another. My instructor was there with me, but there were plenty of Kosho students willing to lend a hand if I got stuck.

After the seminar, I asked my instructor what he thought about Mr. Juchnik learning from Mitose in jail. (Some folks have said it would have been impossible for him to teach from prison). My instructor then recalled something that Mr. Juchnik said at the seminar, where a piece of paper was folded in half, and creased, and Mitose described how pressure on the paper would make it bend at the crease, in the direction of the crease. That lead to an application exploited how an elbow can, and will be bent on its hinge with the right application of pressure. My instructor finished by saying that was likely an example of how Mitose taught, when he could not physically demonstrate. Perhaps some folks will say that the story Mr. Juchnik said was a lie and just another Mitose fraud.

There were aspects to Kosho Ryu Kempo that I found difficult. The terminology at times was a bit flowery and difficult to follow. Sometimes Mr. Juchnik was difficult to follow. There was not as much time spent on combat applications as I personally would have liked...which left me wondering how I would use some of the material in a live situation. Perhaps some folks will say that is proof that the system is fradulent.

The seminar to me was very positive. I particularly enjoyed working out with Mr. Bonk and his students. I can't say that I walked away from the seminar with any kind of personal insult or disgust.

 

[Danjo]

Mitose brought his personal issues on himself. But now that his personal life has been (deservedly) discredited once again, what about his Kempo?

My FMA instructor and I attended a two day Kosho Ryu Kempo seminar with Hashi Juchnik. I see more adulation online of folks like Mr. Tatum and Mr. Gaje than I heard fromm Mr. Juchnik. He spoke favorably of his teaching much like many folks speak favorably of their own teachers.

This was one of a few seminars that I attended with my own instructor because I can't decode information from seminars well, and I wanted his help in breaking the material down for me.

The seminar proceeded with Mr. Juchnik demonstrating a technique, then havning us practice it. My instructor would watch me try what was being taught...such as pointing your shoulder in a direction where you were trying to leap..

He would then ask "Did it work? (Did I jump farther, as Mr. Juchnik said I would?)

When I said yes, he would then quiz me with "Do you know why it worked?" He would challenge me to figure out the mechanics. If I couldn't, he would then explain why. Mechanically, what was being taught appeared to be sound. One move was essentially a one-inch punch, another was was a set of moves that some FMAists practice as a rope form.

Mr. Juchnik has been a colorful figure in his own right, but at least in my interaction with him, I found him to be very helpful and respectful. I arrived at the seminar with an FMA shirt on from my old school but he regarded us with the same respect he gave to Sensei Bonk's students. We weren't the only FMAists there, either, but everyone in attendance was polite and respectful to one another. My instructor was there with me, but there were plenty of Kosho students willing to lend a hand if I got stuck.

After the seminar, I asked my instructor what he thought about Mr. Juchnik learning from Mitose in jail. (Some folks have said it would have been impossible for him to teach from prison). My instructor then recalled something that Mr. Juchnik said at the seminar, where a piece of paper was folded in half, and creased, and Mitose described how pressure on the paper would make it bend at the crease, in the direction of the crease. That lead to an application exploited how an elbow can, and will be bent on its hinge with the right application of pressure. My instructor finished by saying that was likely an example of how Mitose taught, when he could not physically demonstrate. Perhaps some folks will say that the story Mr. Juchnik said was a lie and just another Mitose fraud.

There were aspects to Kosho Ryu Kempo that I found difficult. The terminology at times was a bit flowery and difficult to follow. Sometimes Mr. Juchnik was difficult to follow. There was not as much time spent on combat applications as I personally would have liked...which left me wondering how I would use some of the material in a live situation. Perhaps some folks will say that is proof that the system is fradulent.

The seminar to me was very positive. I particularly enjoyed working out with Mr. Bonk and his students. I can't say that I walked away from the seminar with any kind of personal insult or disgust.

Carol, go on Youtube and search for the videos of Juchnik learning his stuff from Terry Lee (or whatever name he uses now) and you'll see where Juchnik learned some of his stuff. This quagmire gets thicker the more you look at it.

 

[Danjo]

I agree, and I don't think i've ever tried to put Mitose up on a pedestal.

I've said about 3 or 4 times now, I probably would have disassociated from him myself, if I had known him. He had real problems, and I don't deny that.

Well, perhaps you didn't mean to, but when you say that he inherited his system from his family and that those students of his simply didn't have the patience to learn all of what he had to teach, you're perpetuating the myth that Mitose and Will Tracy started. It's sort of a backdoor way of promoting that legend.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, perhaps you didn't mean to, but when you say that he inherited his system from his family and that those students of his simply didn't have the patience to learn all of what he had to teach, you're perpetuating the myth that Mitose and Will Tracy started. It's sort of a backdoor way of promoting that legend.

No, go back and re-read what I said. I actually stated that I sort of leave that issue alone because I suspect the history is murky enough to be unclear. Maybe he had a family system, maybe he didn't. Maybe he was the inheritor, maybe he was not. I dunno, and I said that I sort of leave that bit lie, because to me it's not fully clear.

I've actually acknowledged Mitose's problems very clearly, going so far as to say (for about the 5th time now) that I would have probably distanced myself from him as well, if I had known him at that time. If you look at what I've said objectively, it would be pretty difficult to claim that I've attempted to put him up on a pedestal.

I've simply said that, contrary to what others believe, I believe he had some good stuff to offer, and I've worked with some people who are the recipients of that stuff.

As far as others not having the patience to learn what he was teaching, I've seen enough of it to believe that is a valid point, tho I don't know if lacking patience would be the best way to put it. I think it is something that is hard to see the benefits that it might offer, until much later. You kind of gotta dig into it for a while before it starts to become clear what you are working to accomplish. I think other students of Mitose probably just weren't interested in it because they felt other ways would get them to where they wanted to go, perhaps more obviously. All the power to them. Everyone chooses their own path.

I'm not trying to say Mitose's way was better (gee, is that the second or third time in this thread that I've said that as well?). It was just his way, and not many people chose to follow it. Recognizing the good stuff Mitose had to offer in no way negates the good stuff other people are doing. Mitose=Good, in no way means Emperado=Bad, or Parker=Bad. It just means Mitose=Good, and nothing else.

Once again, I don't care if you don't like him, and I don't care if you and your people feel that his methods didn't have much to offer how your system does things. Feel however you want about him. But there are many people who disagree with you.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I'll offer this in support of the benefits of Mitose's stuff, as well as differences from other kenpo's out there. One of my instructors, Bob Perry, was at Mr. Parkers studio on a day Mitose came to visit. He tells that they were kinda confused by what Mitose did...very elemental, hard-style lunge punch combinations, at a time when they were working with Mr. Parker on flowing, cursive, redirective and off-angling counters.

Mr. Perry said that Mitose moved like a train....you didn't want to be in his way once he got momentum going on a line. But that his ability to track and counter was embryonic compared to what they were working on with Mr. Parker. According to Mr. Perry's memories of sparring Mitose, he was a talented hard stylist, and that's about it. Lacked the levels of sophistication typically associated with other kenpo lineages.

For whatever it's worth...

D.