kenpo and the internal arts

[Flying Crane]

How dare you ask me that again!!! OK Gotcha. The statement is a bit convoluted but as I understand it, yes. As I was taught, you train the internal by insuring the external is executed properly. Over time, the movement needed to achieve the internal results because smaller, until eventually a mind body connection is made. When this happens, the internal takes precedent and alignments and energy becomes almost wholly internal. Maximum results with minimum execution. Speed is a vicarious byproduct as well. "Chi" is nothing but the most efficient use of biomechanical function developed over time.

This agrees with my understanding of Chen style Tai Chi. Movements in learning the form begin large, as this is a way of "kick starting" your internal development. As your skill increases your movement can become smaller and more subtle while still generating the same or better power. Eventually, the movement is purely internal and cannot be seen externally altho it is still there. Not many people ever develop to this level. Most of us still make large movements and struggle to develop power on that level.

With regard to the last statement, I have heard descriptions of chi as feeling like one is taking a shower on the inside of their body. Literally it feels like a fluid sloshing back and forth on the inside. I have never felt this. The best I have felt is a sense of heat in the palms of my hands, during certain movements of the form, and that is not every time. I'm not claiming it is necessarily one or the other, just giving an alternative description. Food for thought, if you will.

 

[Doc]

Actually, no this is not true of the internal Chinese arts. According to my Sifu, even in the Chen Village practitioners will engage in external conditioning in various ways. They don't focus on the hard conditioning like many of the more external stylists do (i.e. developing big callouses on the knuckles thru extensive makiwara training) but the physical development of the body is not neglected.

Well I didn't want to go there, but since you opened it up, yes you're correct. Many flavors of the Chinese Arts train externally first with the emphasis left over from the Tang Dynasty warrior days. When I began as a kid with now Grandmaster Douglas Wong as a classmate, there was always a pot of heated sand, next to a pot of ditdajow, next to a heavy bag. Although everyone didn't participate in this training at Ark Wongs "Wah Que School of Chinese Kung fu," is was there. The Chinese Methods of external training in many instances are even more rigorous than the Japanese/Okinawan methods which only focus on the external.

 

[Doc]

This agrees with my understanding of Chen style Tai Chi. Movements in learning the form begin large, as this is a way of "kick starting" your internal development. As your skill increases your movement can become smaller and more subtle while still generating the same or better power. Eventually, the movement is purely internal and cannot be seen externally altho it is still there. Not many people ever develop to this level. Most of us still make large movements and struggle to develop power on that level.

With regard to the last statement, I have heard descriptions of chi as feeling like one is taking a shower on the inside of their body. Literally it feels like a fluid sloshing back and forth on the inside. I have never felt this. The best I have felt is a sense of heat in the palms of my hands, during certain movements of the form, and that is not every time. I'm not claiming it is necessarily one or the other, just giving an alternative description. Food for thought, if you will.

My most physically visible effect has been the "oozing" of blood through my pores of my fingertips.

 

[IWishToLearn]

"Chi" is nothing but the most efficient use of biomechanical function developed over time.

Dr. Chapel - I'm quoting you on that.

 

[Doc]

Dr. Chapel - I'm quoting you on that.

Thanks for the warning. Hope you got ALL the pictures.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Lemme go count how many I got.

*goes back to outlook & counts*

I got six of them. Thank you so much! Now I can do my magic with Photoshop mehehehe.

 

[Doc]

This agrees with my understanding of Chen style Tai Chi. Movements in learning the form begin large, as this is a way of "kick starting" your internal development. As your skill increases your movement can become smaller and more subtle while still generating the same or better power. Eventually, the movement is purely internal and cannot be seen externally altho it is still there. Not many people ever develop to this level. Most of us still make large movements and struggle to develop power on that level.

Man I gotta stop posting when I'm tired. Too many typos when I read my stuff the next day. Please forgive, I can spell a little bit. Anyway the statement you made is correct. Precise manipulation of the external is an absolute prerequsite to developing the internal. So you need not only someone who knows "how" to teach you, but the willingness to be taught precisely. Of course you realize this absolutely contridicts the commercial philosophy of, "Do it anyway you want, as long as it works for you." that's used to sell self defense arts. These are two of the reasons why many never develop "internal energy" or long lasting skills. The martial activity they've chosen, coupled with the instructor, simply does not have the discipline nor the knowledge of the methodology required. It's a double edged sword. Student retention satisfying flexibility generating short term diminishing and often questionable skills, or physically precise and demanding execution that ultimately generates internal energy. Both work but not equally as well. Too bad they give belts for the first one.

 

[Jagdish]

Dr. Chapel - I'm quoting you on that.

Hey, i did it first!:jedi1: :uhyeah: :lol: :lol2: :roflmao:

Peace :yinyang:

 

[Kenpoist]

While we are on the subject of internal arts, have any of you fellow kenpoists had an extensive study in one of the major three? What is your recommendation as a supplement to Kenpo?

I previously studied Ba Gua (Dragon Palm style) under Master Par Bok-Nam and he diplayed an extraordinary amount of power when he would demonstrate his palm strikes (dragon back/palm strike). I am sorry to say I did not have the time or patience to dedicate myself to the art (I think I was also missing Kenpo at the time).

I have the opportunity to study the internal arts again and I am trying to weigh my options. My research say's that Hsing-I is the easiest to transition to from an "external" background.

Your thoughts are always appreciated.

 

[Doc]

While we are on the subject of internal arts, have any of you fellow kenpoists had an extensive study in one of the major three? What is your recommendation as a supplement to Kenpo?

I previously studied Ba Gua (Dragon Palm style) under Master Par Bok-Nam and he diplayed an extraordinary amount of power when he would demonstrate his palm strikes (dragon back/palm strike). I am sorry to say I did not have the time or patience to dedicate myself to the art (I think I was also missing Kenpo at the time).

I have the opportunity to study the internal arts again and I am trying to weigh my options. My research say's that Hsing-I is the easiest to transition to from an "external" background.

Your thoughts are always appreciated.

I prefer Kenpo.

 

[Bode]

I would definetly have to say that it's not the art, but the teacher. I find that our Kenpo training is as much internal as it is external, the latter being emphasized more. As I see it, proper external movement leads to internal energy.
Working our way from the outside in....

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i've studied tai chi pretty extensively over the last few years. i find it improved my kenpo stances and helped me move more from my center.

i haven't studied the others, so have no basis for comparison. but tai chi was very helpful.

 

[Sigung86]

i've studied tai chi pretty extensively over the last few years. i find it improved my kenpo stances and helped me move more from my center.

i haven't studied the others, so have no basis for comparison. but tai chi was very helpful.

Could you be more specific? I'm curious as to how you have "collaborated" moving on your toes, essentially, with rotating to your stances with stepping in and rotating on your heels?

Don't think I disagree... I am merely looking to make conversation.