kenpo and the internal arts

[pete]

i've heard ed parker quoted as saying there are three things you can do with circular motion: follow its path, reverse its direction, or cut it in half. i found this to parallel the chinese internal arts of tai chi, bagua, and hsing-i, where tai chi will yield and adhere to an opposing force, bagua utilizes change to alter directions, and hsing-i being more linear will cut through its center.

any thoughts on this, whether it was a factor in the development of epak or just coincidental...

pete

 

[Seabrook]

This is too bizarre Pete. I was thinking of the same type of analogy today, as I was slowy working on the hand isolations at the beginning of Long Form 3.

Please don't tell me you were thinking about this over lunch hour, LOL.

Good post.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[pete]

no jamie, nothing creepy, just great minds doing what they do best~

i was actually seeing the following and sticking in Darting Mace with tai chi, the footwork and multiple attacker strategies in Falcons of Force with bagua, and the linear directness in Calming the Storm with hsing-i.

pete

 

[kempoguy71]

I would think that most biomechanically efficient systems will draw parallels to one another.

However, the difference between the Chinese Internal Systems and EPAK (in my humble opinion) is that the latter uses what I would call "Sectional Power", which is different from the power an internal martial artist generates (they generate what I would call "whole body power").

Another difference is that Chinese Internal Systems never issue force until you are in an advantageous position by (trying to) 'borrow the opponents energy'; sticking and following the incoming force vector; and by avoiding direct contact (never meet power with power).


KG

 

[Michael Billings]

I would argue, that a higher level Kenpo student should use a "whole body" form of relaxed power. If I was into the traditional internal arts ... which I am not, I would think of it as reeling silk energy, or a whipping power using the weapon (segment or sectional power) combined with relaxed rotation, gravitational marrage, or body momentum through multiple dimensions. Part of is is to learn NOT to suspend the weapon, with our own musculature, but to allow that relaxed weight to be imparted into the target as possible.

I know this is a bit convuluted, but I am trying to use your framework for a reply, and I am not trying to be disingenuous at all. I am mearly posing the possibility that there are differing levels of understanding within the various EPAK systems. Not all focus on the external, although I think most do start there, there is so much more to learn.

-Michael

 

[Jagdish]

i've heard ed parker quoted as saying there are three things you can do with circular motion: follow its path, reverse its direction, or cut it in half. i found this to parallel the chinese internal arts of tai chi, bagua, and hsing-i, where tai chi will yield and adhere to an opposing force, bagua utilizes change to alter directions, and hsing-i being more linear will cut through its center.

any thoughts on this, whether it was a factor in the development of epak or just coincidental...

pete

Pete:

I have been thinking the same for a long time and i always find similarities.

I feel Epak resembles more to Hsing-I , in the sense of applying the back fists,straight punches,etc. Hsing-I uses vertical circles to reach the opponent & is the more "external" of the 3 systems.

The Epak strategy of circling the opponent resembles Bagua strategies but i haven't been able to link any direct connection. Epak's stepping up the circle depending onthe tech. is very similar.

Also The second level of studying M.A. is to go beyond restrictions of styles and study the Upward, downward, inside, outside, etc. way fo generating force.


Whole Body power is something used by some so called external styles at some extent.

Some quick thoughts. :supcool:

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[Jagdish]

I would argue, that a higher level Kenpo student should use a "whole body" form of relaxed power. If I was into the traditional internal arts ... which I am not, I would think of it as reeling silk energy, or a whipping power using the weapon (segment or sectional power) combined with relaxed rotation, gravitational marrage, or body momentum through multiple dimensions. Part of is is to learn NOT to suspend the weapon, with our own musculature, but to allow that relaxed weight to be imparted into the target as possible.

I know this is a bit convuluted, but I am trying to use your framework for a reply, and I am not trying to be disingenuous at all. I am mearly posing the possibility that there are differing levels of understanding within the various EPAK systems. Not all focus on the external, although I think most do start there, there is so much more to learn.

-Michael

Michael:

The internal arts also focus on issuing all force to the opponent with 0% remaining on the practicioner.

Your thinking is very right. What is FOR You the Silk reeling energy?

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[Doc]

I would argue, that a higher level Kenpo student should use a "whole body" form of relaxed power. If I was into the traditional internal arts ... which I am not, I would think of it as reeling silk energy, or a whipping power using the weapon (segment or sectional power) combined with relaxed rotation, gravitational marrage, or body momentum through multiple dimensions. Part of is is to learn NOT to suspend the weapon, with our own musculature, but to allow that relaxed weight to be imparted into the target as possible.

I know this is a bit convuluted, but I am trying to use your framework for a reply, and I am not trying to be disingenuous at all. I am mearly posing the possibility that there are differing levels of understanding within the various EPAK systems. Not all focus on the external, although I think most do start there, there is so much more to learn.

-Michael

 

[kempoguy71]

I feel Epak resembles more to Hsing-I , in the sense of applying the back fists,straight punches,etc. Hsing-I uses vertical circles to reach the opponent & is the more "external" of the 3 systems.

The Epak strategy of circling the opponent resembles Bagua strategies but i haven't been able to link any direct connection. Epak's stepping up the circle depending onthe tech. is very similar.

I feel EPAK if anything resembles some of the striking elements of Ba Gua over Xing Yi...

I'm unsure of what you mean by Xing Yi being more 'external' than the other 'internal' systems... as far as I know the issuance of various "jing's" (power) are extremely similar between all three arts.

Also Ba Gua can be very "linear"... some schools of Ba Gua use pre-dominantly linear forms (although circle walking is still practiced for palm changes).



On another note, I wanted to quickly address what I meant by Sectional Power and Whole Body Power as I see it...

An "external" martial artists (which is the category I feel most if not all Kenpo falls under) may shift his ‘whole body’ to engage a strike, but more often than not uses compartmentalized power to generate force.

Also in many Kenpo/Kempo systems teach to harden their fists (iron fist, iron palm training; leg conditioning etc.). Now this is never seen in Internal Martial Arts as the focus is never on the striking weapon but on the connection of mind, body and the ground to generate the force. The fist/leg or what not just happens to be there to be used.

Believe it or not, you can easily tell the difference between the two types of power generation if struck.

And how you issue power seem to be quite congruous between most external systems; and the same can be said of internal arts.

By the way, by no means am I saying that one is more effective than another.

 

[Jagdish]

"I feel EPAK if anything resembles some of the striking elements of Ba Gua over Xing Yi... "

Yes, my explanation was partial. The circular moves and combos resembles Bagua. However the single techs. and some combos resemble Hsing-I.

"I'm unsure of what you mean by Xing Yi being more 'external' than the other 'internal' systems... as far as I know the issuance of various "jing's" (power) are extremely similar between all three arts. "

Well, there is a saying 3 years for Xing-Yi, 10 year for Tai-chi and Bagua in between. The jing are a little bit different that's why i said it's more external.
For the explanation of the three jings i have to look into my notes.

"Also Ba Gua can be very "linear"... some schools of Ba Gua use pre-dominantly linear forms (although circle walking is still practiced for palm changes)."

Yes, again you are right but this are modern adds.



"On another note, I wanted to quickly address what I meant by Sectional Power and Whole Body Power as I see it...

An "external" martial artists (which is the category I feel most if not all Kenpo falls under) may shift his ‘whole body’ to engage a strike, but more often than not uses compartmentalized power to generate force.

Also in many Kenpo/Kempo systems teach to harden their fists (iron fist, iron palm training; leg conditioning etc.). Now this is never seen in Internal Martial Arts as the focus is never on the striking weapon but on the connection of mind, body and the ground to generate the force. The fist/leg or what not just happens to be there to be used.

Believe it or not, you can easily tell the difference between the two types of power generation if struck.

And how you issue power seem to be quite congruous between most external systems; and the same can be said of internal arts.

By the way, by no means am I saying that one is more effective than another.
"


Again your explanation is right.

Glad to talk to you. :supcool:

Just one quick note: Doc has post some of his way of doing the kenpo and its internal from my point of view. He also has a profound knowlege and has the ability to explain it within a common sense point of view.

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[pete]

i don't see american kenpo as more one or the other, but as perhaps a perfect balance of the tai chi, bagua, and hsing-i internal elements and fighting strategies. take a technique like capture leaves. the base is pure tai chi anti-chin na and the extension could have come out of a bagua textbook.

most kenpoists are 'external' artists, but that does not make kenpo an external art. maybe it is for us guys struggling through our training. i truly believe that at the highest level, and with certain practitioners, kenpo can be as much an internal art as the traditional 3. i've seen (and felt it) with one such kenpo master, and glimpses in other kenpoists.

pete

 

[Doc]

i don't see american kenpo as more one or the other, but as perhaps a perfect balance of the tai chi, bagua, and hsing-i internal elements and fighting strategies. take a technique like capture leaves. the base is pure tai chi anti-chin na and the extension could have come out of a bagua textbook.

most kenpoists are 'external' artists, but that does not make kenpo an external art. maybe it is for us guys struggling through our training. i truly believe that at the highest level, and with certain practitioners, kenpo can be as much an internal art as the traditional 3. i've seen (and felt it) with one such kenpo master, and glimpses in other kenpoists.

pete

 

[Jagdish]

i don't see american kenpo as more one or the other, but as perhaps a perfect balance of the tai chi, bagua, and hsing-i internal elements and fighting strategies. take a technique like capture leaves. the base is pure tai chi anti-chin na and the extension could have come out of a bagua textbook.

pete

I don't see how AK can be a balance of T.C.,B.G., an X.I. I see a system with internal principles that resemble, depending on the execution, one or other style.

Having 2 arms, 2 legs, one trunk and one head(in some cases) limits the way the human body can move eficiently. Therefore, in higher levels different styles will resemble the same in similar executed techniques .

most kenpoists are 'external' artists, but that does not make kenpo an external art. maybe it is for us guys struggling through our training. i truly believe that at the highest level, and with certain practitioners, kenpo can be as much an internal art as the traditional 3. i've seen (and felt it) with one such kenpo master, and glimpses in other kenpoists.

pete

Therefore the individual can enhance a system,no? Using the proper principles.:asian:

But in higher levels...there shouldn't be any internal/external dicotomy.What do you think?


Yours,

Jagdish

 

[camilyon]

Also in many Kenpo/Kempo systems teach to harden their fists (iron fist, iron palm training; leg conditioning etc.). Now this is never seen in Internal Martial Arts as the focus is never on the striking weapon but on the connection of mind, body and the ground to generate the force. The fist/leg or what not just happens to be there to be used.

What do you think about this Doc? And during practice does SL-4 concern it self with the internal muscles and organs? (Don't remember whether or not I asked this question before, please be patient) :asian:

 

[Doc]

What do you think about this Doc? And during practice does SL-4 concern it self with the internal muscles and organs? (Don't remember whether or not I asked this question before, please be patient) :asian:

How dare you ask me that again!!! OK Gotcha. The statement is a bit convoluted but as I understand it, yes. As I was taught, you train the internal by insuring the external is executed properly. Over time, the movement needed to achieve the internal results because smaller, until eventually a mind body connection is made. When this happens, the internal takes precedent and alignments and energy becomes almost wholly internal. Maximum results with minimum execution. Speed is a vicarious byproduct as well. "Chi" is nothing but the most efficient use of biomechanical function developed over time.

Most these days, especially in many forms of "kenpo," place a great deal of emphasis on "techniques" from the beginning without laying foundational material to support the structor. The teaching of "basics" is truly a lost art. What are basics? Biomechanical movement designed to ultimately create internal enrgy, or chi. Teaching them takes an extraordinarily knowledgeable teacher who was tutored by another of the same. Most modern kenpo doesn't even have anything that resembles decent stances. It's the teachers fault, whomever he is. "You ain't gonna find that in no books." - Ed Parker Sr.

 

[Jagdish]

"Chi" is nothing but the most efficient use of biomechanical function developed over time.

Finally someone has told it as it is.:ultracool

 

[Doc]

I would argue, that a higher level Kenpo student should use a "whole body" form of relaxed power. If I was into the traditional internal arts ... which I am not, I would think of it as reeling silk energy, or a whipping power using the weapon (segment or sectional power) combined with relaxed rotation, gravitational marrage, or body momentum through multiple dimensions. Part of is is to learn NOT to suspend the weapon, with our own musculature, but to allow that relaxed weight to be imparted into the target as possible.

I know this is a bit convuluted, but I am trying to use your framework for a reply, and I am not trying to be disingenuous at all. I am mearly posing the possibility that there are differing levels of understanding within the various EPAK systems. Not all focus on the external, although I think most do start there, there is so much more to learn.

-Michael

Preach Big Mike.

 

[Doc]

I would think that most biomechanically efficient systems will draw parallels to one another.

However, the difference between the Chinese Internal Systems and EPAK (in my humble opinion) is that the latter uses what I would call "Sectional Power", which is different from the power an internal martial artist generates (they generate what I would call "whole body power").

Preach alert: Keep in mind that genralizations about Ed Parker Kenpo don't work well. Being specific about your experiences is much better, and allow the Kenpo people to comment on their expereinces as well. Most in any art are usually only exposed to small segments of their own art and even less of others.

I guarantee that people like myself and Mr. Billings would disagree with your general assertion. There are instructors in Kenpo from the Ed Parker Lineage who do teach "whole body" power. I myself, teach it from the beginning with the emphasis on proper execution and stances from day one. There is no transition from one method to another. There is simply correct, and incorrect. There are many "kenpo flavors" and as much as we want to characterize "EPAK" into a certain box, the diversity inherent in Mr. Parker's own teaching precludes gross generalizations. Now let's see, what were we talking about again? Thanks for letting me preach a bit.

 

[jdinca]

I'm glad this post popped up! Fabulous stuff.

 

[Flying Crane]

Also in many Kenpo/Kempo systems teach to harden their fists (iron fist, iron palm training; leg conditioning etc.). Now this is never seen in Internal Martial Arts as the focus is never on the striking weapon but on the connection of mind, body and the ground to generate the force. The fist/leg or what not just happens to be there to be used.

Actually, no this is not true of the internal Chinese arts. According to my Sifu, even in the Chen Village practitioners will engage in external conditioning in various ways. They don't focus on the hard conditioning like many of the more external stylists do (i.e. developing big callouses on the knuckles thru extensive makiwara training) but the physical development of the body is not neglected.