Kenpo and Boxing

[KENPOJOE]

Yep! I taught a camp in Vegas and half the group were without cups, I was informed when we began to work on a drill. When I asked about how they protect themselves in case of contact, I was told they were, "..not allowed to make contact with each other, only on the bag." All I could think of was how small the island was I must have been living on.

Contact will definitely have a limiting effect on your enrollment, and bottom line.

Hi Folks!
Thank you,Ron...this was a good one!
At tournaments, I used to have the kid competitors "knock on their cup" to see if "anyone was home" to then hear a symphony of groin cup bongo solos as they realized it made a sound when you hit it!
I was recently teaching a seminar in vegas myself and asked who was not wearing a cup, a couple of hands went up and I jokingly stated "FOOLISH MORTALS! Kenpo is one of the most groin obsessed systems in the world! We find new and interesting ways to hit someone in the crotch everyday!"
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[Doc]

Hi Folks!
Thank you,Ron...this was a good one!
At tournaments, I used to have the kid competitors "knock on their cup" to see if "anyone was home" to then hear a symphony of groin cup bongo solos as they realized it made a sound when you hit it!
I was recently teaching a seminar in vegas myself and asked who was not wearing a cup, a couple of hands went up and I jokingly stated "FOOLISH MORTALS! Kenpo is one of the most groin obsessed systems in the world! We find new and interesting ways to hit someone in the crotch everyday!"
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

"Knocking to see if anyone is home." I will definitely steal that one.

 

[KENPOJOE]

"Knocking to see if anyone is home." I will definitely steal that one.

Hi folks!
I should quote it correctly
It's "knock on the door" to check cups then "Smile to see if anybody's home" Checking mouthpieces....
But it is funny!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
PS: I remember one time Mr. Parker said he was going to give all his pasadena black belts Brass Groin cups at different tones so when he hit them it would sound like a swiss bell ringer playing a tune! ["BingBongBingBong!!!]
LOL!

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi folks!
Interesting thread on boxing and kenpo...
I know in EPAK, I was taught that the Orange Belt techniques [24 technique version] was taught to primarily address boxers and wrestlers.
At a glance:
Dance of Death -front right straight punch [straight right]{don't step through}
5 swords -front right step through roundhouse punch [haymaker]
reversing mace [front left punch] {sticking a jab}
Striking serpent's head -front left hooking punch [left hook]
Raining claw -uppercut [ditto]
so, as I always say, in order for you to learn the defenses, you must learn the attacks! In so doing, you expand your knowledge base and see "the other side of kenpo"
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[MJS]

Hi folks!
Interesting thread on boxing and kenpo...
I know in EPAK, I was taught that the Orange Belt techniques [24 technique version] was taught to primarily address boxers and wrestlers.
At a glance:
Dance of Death -front right straight punch [straight right]{don't step through}
5 swords -front right step through roundhouse punch [haymaker]
reversing mace [front left punch] {sticking a jab}
Striking serpent's head -front left hooking punch [left hook]
Raining claw -uppercut [ditto]
so, as I always say, in order for you to learn the defenses, you must learn the attacks! In so doing, you expand your knowledge base and see "the other side of kenpo"
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Hi Joe,

Nice to see you posting again. Anyways...regarding the techs...I agree, those are boxing type attacks. Of course, hopefully, as I've said in other threads, people are taking their stuff one step further and not standing like a statue, while the other guy blasts away with 10+ strikes. Additionally, I'd also hope that people would be testing their defenses against people that're better than us, in specific areas. In other words, we can do takedown defenses, ie: the ram techs., until we're blue in the face, but it'd be nice to see how they'd hold up against someone who is really good at takedowns, ie: a grappler. The same can be applied to the punching.

I dont know...maybe me and a few others are the only ones who value what can be gained from other arts. I simply mentioned the boxing, due to the fact of the popularity of MMA.

This is why I like to cross train. Not only do I get to pick up ideas from other people, but also test my stuff out too.

 

[Hand Sword]

That was also my feeling about this topic. As I said, I remember both sides and the feeling how each was a joke. I am hoping that a thread like this in the MA side would not be posted from the ideology of Boxing (boxers) being a joke or something less skilled and to be looked down upon. I'm not saying that anyone in here did so- let that be clear. So, it's not an accusation. However, this is a mindset that I have seen and heard FREQUENTLY in the martial art community. So, I hope that's not the problem.

If you don't like boxing or think anything of it--that's fair! Perfectly acceptable! Same way if you do too. You could still contribute as to why and voice concerns, thoughts, etc.. Maybe a response might make a new consideration, one way or another, which makes a fruitful conversation and learning experience. It's always better on a discussion forum, than the "just 'cause" argument.

 

[Thesemindz]

Hi Joe,

Nice to see you posting again. Anyways...regarding the techs...I agree, those are boxing type attacks. Of course, hopefully, as I've said in other threads, people are taking their stuff one step further and not standing like a statue, while the other guy blasts away with 10+ strikes. Additionally, I'd also hope that people would be testing their defenses against people that're better than us, in specific areas. In other words, we can do takedown defenses, ie: the ram techs., until we're blue in the face, but it'd be nice to see how they'd hold up against someone who is really good at takedowns, ie: a grappler. The same can be applied to the punching.

I dont know...maybe me and a few others are the only ones who value what can be gained from other arts. I simply mentioned the boxing, due to the fact of the popularity of MMA.

This is why I like to cross train. Not only do I get to pick up ideas from other people, but also test my stuff out too.

First time I went up against a boxer was a real wake up call.

He was just a beginner student at our Kenpo school, and I was Billy The Brown Belt Badass. And the first time he hit me with a jab to the face sure surprised the hell out of me.

He wasn't even that good a boxer, but it was a different fight then I was used to. Totally different head movement, body movement, stepping, blocking, striking. Strikes coming from angles I wasn't used to. A different mindset towards defense and offense. It was a real challenge.

I was used to a lot more circular striking, and a longer range that allowed for kicking. He came right at me with short jabs and high crosses, which was very unlike the karate style sparring I was used too, and blew up my defense.

I learned later that my instructor had pawned him off on me after jamming his shoulder blocking trying to spar the kid himself.

He was a good dude, with a good attitude. And he took those boxing skills right into kenpo and did well there too. And I learned a lot from that fight and opened up a whole new dimension to my fighting. I started working with other guys in the school who had boxing experience and working their drills into my training.

I've had the same experience fighting BJJ guys, and Muay Thai guys, and Capoeria guys, and Shootfighting guys, and Tae-Kwon-Do guys. That's why I continue to try to train with them when I can.

Because you can get real, real good at beating up the other students at your school, but when you get thrust into a situation you are inexperienced with it can be more of a challenge than you might think.

I think it's very important to share your skills with students of other arts, and learn from what they have to share. It's the best way to improve against their styles, and it helps you to recognize more clearly the mark of a trained fighter or a novice.

I've picked up a lot of great material that way, without having to sacrifice what I've learned about kenpo.


-Rob

 

[Hand Sword]

Great post! It's very true too, that an unfamiliar stimulus, even with a slight adjustment from your training (ex. same punch, a different angle, range, etc..) could cause that "deer in the headlight syndrome" for a brief moment.

 

[Danjo]

I think that everything depends on your goal in training. If you're training to compete, then boxing training is a good way to go. Boxing has been training competitors for a long long time. However, if you're training for self defense, then I prefer martial arts training.

We incorporate some boxing into Kajukenbo and use some of the bagwork combinations as well. We also train for how to defend against boxing attacks (as well as many other types of attacks). But if I'm going to be attacked in the street, it will likely be when I look like a victim ripe for the picking (though I hopefully don't ever come off that way). I may be sick, drunk, obviously injured (maybe wearing a cast or on crutches) or old etc. In any event, I will not likely be in top condition when someone decides to attack "lil old me". If that's the case, then I don't want to have my main training be in an art/sport that requires me to have a clear head, good endurance and a lot of space to make it work. I'd rather have my instincts be to go for combinations that attack the nerve centers, joints and soft targets in order to incapacitate someone as quickly and efficiently as possible. I don't want a boxing match. I also don't want to be Mike Tyson hitting Mitch Green in the head and breaking my hand. In my forties, I'm largely past competing (though sometimes I can't resist like at Doug Bunda's tourney every year cuz he forces his old guys to fight ), but that doesn't mean I can't train to defend myself.

 

[Mark Jordan]

Kenpo and Boxing go well together especially for stand-up fighting. Boxing can improve balance, body positioning as well as endurance. The boxing hand and defensive moves (bob and weave) can also improve your kenpo hand strikes.

 

[Danjo]

Kenpo and Boxing go well together especially for stand-up fighting. Boxing can improve balance, body positioning as well as endurance. The boxing hand and defensive moves (bob and weave) can also improve your kenpo hand strikes.

How does it improve your Kenpo hand strikes?

As to the rest, I think Kenpo (in fact most martial arts) does fine for balance and body positioning. The qualititative debate as to which martial art skill set is superior is endlessly debated. It's like asking which flavor of ice cream tastes best. We all have our opinons and preferences and just about the time we're ready to dismiss an art we have a ninja come in and win the UFC.

As far as endurance goes, that will all depend on how one trains obviously. Folks like Chuck Norris were/are excercise fanatics and never lacked conditioning even though he was never a boxer. The big reason that boxing improves endurance is because it's primarily a sport that requires a lot of endurance to last the rounds, whereas most that train in the martial arts do so for self defense rather than for competition. Being in shape doesn't hurt you by any means, but isn't the prime requisite for defending yourself.

 

[Hand Sword]

Just to play devil's advocate, my guess is that since a lot of MA schools don't pound away on Makiwaras and assorted types of heavy bags any more and stick to air striking and controlled shots, training the punches of Boxing will add power because that's what pounding on bags/etc at full power gives you. Defensively, since I have trained in Boxing as well as the arts, I know that the defensive movements and strategies practiced by boxers and again, not most MA'ists, leaves you in prime position for follow ups and the opponent much more open-trained or untrained- where the MA specialized strikes are optimized.

Again I say this as a Kempo stylist and one who is by no means a "Boxer." One of them could speak better on this. I was going by Mark's post and guessing, based on experience and intuition, that is what he was referring to. Also, It's is a worthy discussion, and I'm just trying to keep the fire burning. :asian:

 

[LawDog]

One should take note that many Kempo/Kenpo systems do not use these very "in close" type of boxing/kickboxing strikes.
Ex. - short/long hooks, upper cuts, elbows etc.
I believe that Kaju does, mine does and the Cerio system uses them.
These powerful "in close" strikes are important because most street situations will end up "very In close" in under 30 seconds, often ending up on the ground.

 

[MattJ]

How does it improve your Kenpo hand strikes?

As to the rest, I think Kenpo (in fact most martial arts) does fine for balance and body positioning. The qualititative debate as to which martial art skill set is superior is endlessly debated. It's like asking which flavor of ice cream tastes best. We all have our opinons and preferences and just about the time we're ready to dismiss an art we have a ninja come in and win the UFC.

In theory, kenpo is just as good as boxing as far as hand strikes, with a wider available palette. In practice, many kenpo schools do not do enough resistant training to make most of what they know. This does give most boxers (and boxing by default) a practical edge, in reality.

As far as endurance goes, that will all depend on how one trains obviously. Folks like Chuck Norris were/are excercise fanatics and never lacked conditioning even though he was never a boxer. The big reason that boxing improves endurance is because it's primarily a sport that requires a lot of endurance to last the rounds, whereas most that train in the martial arts do so for self defense rather than for competition. Being in shape doesn't hurt you by any means, but isn't the prime requisite for defending yourself.

But it is an important one - a very important one.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi folks!
Dear MJS{Mike}
As far as the "standing like a statue, while the other guy blasts away with 10+ strikes" comment, My response: You've got to start somewhere. Do the ideal phase to get the understanding of the cheoreograhy of the technique and the understanding of reactionary positioning. Start working with higher levels of intensity only when a thorough understanding and performance of the base techique is acheived.If you cannot perform the technique correctly in the first place how can you fare successfully against a skilled practitioner who thoroughly knows HIS technique!
I am definitely one of those individuals who benefit from learning and teaching multiple arts and how it answers many questions regarding the kenpo/kempo sstyles/systems I study/teach. If we truly do those techniques "'til we are blue in the face" then you are following one of the major terms I teach all of my students..."Learned technique becomes instinctive reflex through repetition!"
in other words, do the technique until you are sick & tired of it...THEN DO IT SOME MORE!
By working with master grapplers like David German, I appreciated grappling more and he had me look at that aspect with a more discerning eye.But the previous statement still held true.
If we do not train these techniques without logical progression & a logical progression of contact and intensity then we will simply dismiss a technique with "that technique sucks" or "that doesn't work" and it will be an inaccurate statement.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Hi Joe,

Nice to see you posting again. Anyways...regarding the techs...I agree, those are boxing type attacks. Of course, hopefully, as I've said in other threads, people are taking their stuff one step further and not standing like a statue, while the other guy blasts away with 10+ strikes. Additionally, I'd also hope that people would be testing their defenses against people that're better than us, in specific areas. In other words, we can do takedown defenses, ie: the ram techs., until we're blue in the face, but it'd be nice to see how they'd hold up against someone who is really good at takedowns, ie: a grappler. The same can be applied to the punching.

I dont know...maybe me and a few others are the only ones who value what can be gained from other arts. I simply mentioned the boxing, due to the fact of the popularity of MMA.

This is why I like to cross train. Not only do I get to pick up ideas from other people, but also test my stuff out too.

 

[Danjo]

In theory, kenpo is just as good as boxing as far as hand strikes, with a wider available palette. In practice, many kenpo schools do not do enough resistant training to make the most of what they know. This does give most boxers (and boxing by default) a practical edge, in reality.

More like it gives boxers an advantage in the ring or in sparring. I don't have a problem with boxing. I like it in fact. However, I think that the solution to bad Kenpo practices is to improve one's Kenpo practice, not to add boxing. If one needs to increase one's bag work, endurance etc., then they should do so without trying to add stuff from an art/sport/"sweet science" that is, IMO inferior to Kenpo for actual street encounters.

But it is an important one - a very important one.

I hope not, otherwise if I'm attacked when I'm sick or infirm, then I'm screwed. My techniques should work whether I'm in shape or not. Sijo Emperado never stopped developing Kajukenbo. He even demonstrated techniques that he devised to use as an old man sitting in a wheel chair.

Being in shape is important for sparring or other forms of competition, but if your fighting methods depend on it, then you better hope to never be attacked when you're out of shape.

 

[Thesemindz]

It's a difficult discussion to have without defining what we mean by kenpo in the first place.

Do we mean a pure Ed Parker system? Or something else? I teach elements of western boxing and other arts in my kenpo curriculum. I tell my students that certain techniques, drills, and exercises are derivitives of a foreign art, but they are still a part of the kenpo that I teach. So what does it mean for me to say that boxing helps my kenpo? Boxing is a part of my kenpo.

Is Kajukenbo kenpo? Is Tracy's? Is Sub Level Four? What about the innumerable individual styles being taught by rogue black belts who have left their lineage? Are they still teaching kenpo? How much is enough? What is too much?

My understanding is that much of what is taught in America as "kenpo" today is itself derived technique from arts like Tae-Kwon-Do, Jujutsu, Aikido, and professional wrestling.

Some may like to incorporate boxing, or fitness, and it may work for them. Others might be happy without either. Still others might think that they are already in there and don't need to be added, only explored.

I have a feeling that the ultimate result of this debate will be that each of us are capable of excelling at our chosen training methods, and we are all quite good at what we do. Regardless of the individual specifics.


-Rob

 

[Danjo]

It's a difficult discussion to have without defining what we mean by kenpo in the first place.

Do we mean a pure Ed Parker system? Or something else? I teach elements of western boxing and other arts in my kenpo curriculum. I tell my students that certain techniques, drills, and exercises are derivitives of a foreign art, but they are still a part of the kenpo that I teach. So what does it mean for me to say that boxing helps my kenpo? Boxing is a part of my kenpo.

Is Kajukenbo kenpo? Is Tracy's? Is Sub Level Four? What about the innumerable individual styles being taught by rogue black belts who have left their lineage? Are they still teaching kenpo? How much is enough? What is too much?

My understanding is that much of what is taught in America as "kenpo" today is itself derived technique from arts like Tae-Kwon-Do, Jujutsu, Aikido, and professional wrestling.

Some may like to incorporate boxing, or fitness, and it may work for them. Others might be happy without either. Still others might think that they are already in there and don't need to be added, only explored.

I have a feeling that the ultimate result of this debate will be that each of us are capable of excelling at our chosen training methods, and we are all quite good at what we do. Regardless of the individual specifics.


-Rob

I think that I was taking the post to mean that one could improve their Kenpo by training in boxing and that boxing would make up for the perceived deficiencies in Kenpo. If boxing is incorporated into your Kenpo method, then that's a slightly different issue I think. We have boxing incorporated into Kajukenbo, or rather as part of what makes up Kajukenbo, but not something taught seperately in order to improve one's Kajukenbo per se.

 

[MattJ]

Quote by Danjo -

More like it gives boxers an advantage in the ring or in sparring. I don't have a problem with boxing. I like it in fact. However, I think that the solution to bad Kenpo practices is to improve one's Kenpo practice, not to add boxing. If one needs to increase one's bag work, endurance etc., then they should do so without trying to add stuff from an art/sport/"sweet science" that is, IMO inferior to Kenpo for actual street encounters.

The advantage boxers have in the ring is the same one on the street - speed, strength, timing and accuracy that come from resistant training. I don't think it's possible to meaningfully seperate training from training methods. If either one is deficient, the practitioner will be deficient by default. In any case, I wasn't arguing for adding boxing techniques per se, but rather their training methodology.

I hope not, otherwise if I'm attacked when I'm sick or infirm, then I'm screwed. My techniques should work whether I'm in shape or not. Sijo Emperado never stopped developing Kajukenbo. He even demonstrated techniques that he devised to use as an old man sitting in a wheel chair.

Being in shape is important for sparring or other forms of competition, but if your fighting methods depend on it, then you better hope to never be attacked when you're out of shape.

Heh, that is a good point, but if you're sick or infirmed, then you probabaly ARE screwed in reality, yes? Predators do not pick on those that are in shape and represent a threat, as you noted earlier. Being in shape is something that I regard as the first line of self-defense, not just in being able to withstand an attack, but in discouraging them in the first place.

 

[Danjo]

The advantage boxers have in the ring is the same one on the street - speed, strength, timing and accuracy that come from resistant training. I don't think it's possible to meaningfully seperate training from training methods. If either one is deficient, the practitioner will be deficient by default. In any case, I wasn't arguing for adding boxing techniques per se, but rather their training methodology.

Let's define some terms here then. "Training" means what you are taught, i.e., the techniques and how to do them properly. "Training Methods" means how they are taught. The how is going to change from teacher to teacher even if the techniques are the same. It may even change with the same teacher depending on the student(s) that are being taught. Athletic young men may be taught differently than children or the elderly etc. Now I didn't say that they would neccessarily be taught different things, but rather a different method would be used to teach the same material. In this sense, it is entirely possible to seperate the two from each other.

As to the rest, I agree that being strong and in good condition are advantages for the most part. However, one thing that we have noticed in our school is that bigger stronger guys tend to be sloppier in their technique. They find that they can cheat material and still make it work for them by simply muscling it rather than using proper leverage etc. For instance, if I'm strong enough to make someone wince and even submit when I grab their hand and squeeze, then I may never learn to do a proper wrist lock. Ultimately that is not to my advantage since I may not always be strong enough to pull that off, or else I may run into someone stronger than me and then I'll really wish that I had the proper technique engrained instead of the sloppy way of doing it. Over-reliance on being in top condition can be a detriment. which goes to your next point...

Heh, that is a good point, but if you're sick or infirmed, then you probabaly ARE screwed in reality, yes? Predators do not pick on those that are in shape and represent a threat, as you noted earlier. Being in shape is something that I regard as the first line of self-defense, not just in being able to withstand an attack, but in discouraging them in the first place.

If the only way that your training benefits you is by being in such great condition that you scare off any potential attackers, then you need to train in something else IMO. The martial arts are designed to give the smaller, weaker person a way to defend themselves against a bigger stronger person. They do this with using the element of surprise as well as superior technique. To me, boxing is not the best method of defending oneself. Even in the videos where a boxer fights off people in the street (look on youtube) they rarely end the fight quickly unless the opponents run off. Boxers will beat on each other for 12 (used to be 15) rounds and not score a knockout. How many rounds could someone stand being kicked in the groin, poked in the eye, chopped in the throat or neck, smashing their collar bone, kicked in the knee joint? etc. How good of condition does one have to be in in order to pull off those techniques?

Like I said before, I don't want to train in something that tells me I'm "screwed' if I'm sick or injured.