Kata

[MJS]

In looking at some of the other threads in the forum, I've heard alot of talk about kata. Some people think that they are useless, while others think that there is something to actually be learned from them.

A kata is a pre-set arrangement of moves put together for the student to go through. Some kata, such as short 3 contain sd tech that are part of the regular SD curriculum.

People ask, "Why do Kata? What am I going to get out of them? I would never fight anybody like that!" So my question to everybody is.....Why do we do them?

If you look at George Dillman, he breaks down a kata, and shows the hidden pressure point applications that are hidden within the movements. He is able to give more than one application for every move in the kata. Now, while I have never trained with Dillman, I have trained with a guy that travels to a school in MA, that does PP. He has shown me many different applications to different kata, that have really opened my eyes. I would say to myself after, "Wow, I never realized that that move was in there!"

Would you actually fight someone using a kata? Well, I can only, and will only speak for myself, but I would never do that. However, I do believe that if you break apart certain moves of the kata, you might be able to apply them to a SD situation.

We all train for different reasons, and have different outlooks on things. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say regarding kata!

Mike

 

[Mark L]

I practice kata for two reasons: they teach me how to move and they get me to think. I don't believe the pre-arranged techniques that constitute kata were intended to be a blueprint for a dynamic, violent encounter. But the abiltiy to move efficiently in both attack and defense, from opponent to opponent is evident in the kata. The more I practice moving (kata) the better I perform the rest of the curriculum.

Now the thinking part. I've heard the line that the core information of a style is contained within the forms of the style, waiting to be unlocked by the diligent student under the watchful eye of his sensei. Perhaps that is true. I prefer to examine each movement, or series of movements, and try to figure what I can do with it in different situations. I look for applications in multiple scenarios. Can I use it in a 'typical' fight? Against a weapon? Is there a place for it on the ground? Or if some grabs me by the shoulder or swings a bottle at my head? Is what looks like a block really a block, or is it a strike? To a pressure point? Then I check them out on a body. Sometimes I come up empty, but mostly I don't.

To me, the movements within the forms are the spark that ignites the creativity of the individual martial artist. I'd like to think that was the intent of the originator.

 

[progressivetactics]

Kata's, I believe, serve many purposes. Besides teaching in a flow pattern, your basic techinques of your curriculum, it helps to improve posture, breathing, understanding, limitations, and helps facilitate self perfecting drills. Would I do a kata in a fight, Only if the attacks were all coming at me in the exact order/direction of that kata!!!

Do the techniques in Kata work for self defense? Just like everything else......Given the right time and place, of course.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

MJS: Are you just trying to stir things up? This has the potential to really get nasty. I've been nice for a dozen or so posts...now it is time to throw-down again!

Kata practice is valuable to learn body control, mental discipline, stance & technique transition, breathing, moving meditation, and to memorize movements. There are many other important benefits to Kata. You can get many of these same benefits from Tai Chi.

However, Traditional Martial Artists and Kenpoists are fooling themselves if they think that Kata practice is a good fight-training method. Kata practice cannot make you a better fighter, improve your self-defense, or make you a better technician. ALL of the techniques in Kata can be taught separately. Technique effectiveness and understanding can be accomplished without any Kata practice. To maximize fighting and self-defense ability, time spent on memorizing each Kata and working on transitions form one technique to another would be better spent working the technique on a resisting partner.

Now, I've said it. Rather than responding angrily and rehashing this tired topic on the Kenpo forum, I suggest you all visit the discussion on "How Many Kata is too Many" in the Karate Forum here on Martialtalk. In that thread, some poor guy provoked my nasty-side by asking if his instructor was out of line by asking him to learn 80 (yes eighty!) katas. I in turn motivated by my recent conversion to anti-Kata thnking provoked cries of "Troll! Troll!" from the Traditional Karatakas. Personal insults and challenges motivating moderator intervention ensued and a few Karatekas left Martialtalk. Rehash or read at
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8352&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

 

[Michael Billings]

OK, You Could spend your time training with a partner ... but that is not always an option ... did you say 80 katas? Whew - wait, ok now I remember, in traditional Japanese systems of karate, a "kata" is a relatively short series of movements, almost like one of Kenpo's longer techniques, with extensions. Before someone gets offended, this is not true in all styles or systems of Karate, but what was called a kata in Kendo class, was reletively brief, comparitively.

Memorize the forms. It is a nice way to take an encyclopedia around with you that you can train with away from home, or when you don't have a partner. Or when you want a half hour of continuous exercise without thinking about individual technique names.

Forms give you a context for stance transitions, angle changes, checking, covering, multiple and varied natural weapons, it teaches how to transition from one opponent to the next. They can be practiced anarobically with dynamic tension, aerobically, using other people as actual opponents, isolating techniques, pieces of techniques, or basics.

We will have to agree to disagree here OFK. I remember always being a fighter, but I also remember winning my 1st trophy for Kata. I am a big guy, and never considered myself graceful ... I just had no context to even entertain that as a descriptor for how I moved. I had come out of a very hard style system, and the flow just was not there. It was a true rush winning 1st as a purple belt, 1980ish or so. It helped redefine me as a martial artist, in terms of potentially how I could move.

I did the old Poison Hand Set followed by Short #2, soft and flowing, but with focus for Poison Hand (Finger Set 1 with a few variations), then did Short #2 very hard and focused. I could not relax to save my life in front of a real opponent. The adrenaline flowed and the muscles got pumped. Forms assisted me in learning the tension relaxation necessary to execute our techniques as Mr. Parker taught.

Oss

 

[kkbb]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kata practice is valuable to learn body control, mental discipline, stance & technique transition, breathing, moving meditation, and to memorize movements.

Don't forget Cardio! I agree 100%

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
However, Traditional Martial Artists and Kenpoists are fooling themselves if they think that Kata practice is a good fight-training method. Kata practice cannot make you a better fighter, improve your self-defense, or make you a better technician. ALL of the techniques in Kata can be taught separately. Technique effectiveness and understanding can be accomplished without any Kata practice. To maximize fighting and self-defense ability, time spent on memorizing each Kata and working on transitions form one technique to another would be better spent working the technique on a resisting partner.

I agree here to. I DON'T think everybody in the MA community realises that Kenpo practioners are taught the bunkai to most of their forms before they are taught the forms. I do know in most other systems it is reversed. Therefore when a non-kenpoist sees the bunkai for the first of many times they are suprised to find so much info in the form. As expected, they will of course find great knowledge in these forms or kata.

The problem I have with the kenpo forms is the transitions are not always true to the technique. Having to do these forms with these transitions can be counter productive. Practising the techniques individually in the air to 12:00 o'clock (or any time with no transitions) can be just as productive if not more productive.

Using this method of practice, I find myself not wanting to travel to a different time to execute and finish a technique. Then working on partners also improves. Again I am not looking to execute the technique at the wrong "time".

I have noticed some of these problems in my students & myself from time to time. They do well at the Kata but ask them to execute at another direction and they hesitate. And vise versa...

And let the flack begin!

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Wow: the people on the Kenpo forum are so much more civilized than the people on the Karate forum. Then again, my post here wasn't as flagrantly antagonistic either...

 

[MJS]

Stir things up OFK?? Me?? Now, I don't do that, do I?? LOL, LOL, LOL!

Alot of excellent posts!! True, we could do kata with a partner to get a better idea of the movements, but do you really want to spend that much time trying to position all of the opps. that you're gonna need just to do this? I have done it before, and I wasnt crazy about it. Just my opinion and my exp. I'd rather take an indivdual move from the kata, and do that against an opp, that was giving me a little more resistance.

I do agree with the whole movement theory. It does teach you how to move from one direction to another, how to block while moving, etc. Just look at Parkers Infinate Insights books, where he is explaining all of the moves in some of the katas.

MJS

 

[progressivetactics]

Just to throw my 2cents in, again... Kata I think help disguise repetition. Repitition that people may not whole heartedly complete, if it was always 2 person self perfecting drills. Kata is a way of continually putting together combinations (whether practical or not) to flow, move, create and live your techniques. Just my opinion. Not that I disagree with previous posts.

Also, just a side note about 80 katas. I don't know if that was all hard fist katas of a traditional ryu-wa, or combination from one instructor, but if you think about systems that incorporate Iaido into their curricuulum, There is only 4 motions in each sword form. The forms vary by the different draws, cuts, bloodshakes, and returns. I had to learn 10 iaido kata and do 6 months of saiza postures before I could test the first time.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I know this is the kenpo area but remember in some styles the kata are for two people. They where developed with the idea of 2 people doing them togeather so that an opponet was in front of you thowing a punch or kick and you did block and counter to a person .

Are kata helpful - yes, for the reasons people have alrady stated.

Where they designed to teach selfdefence moves - some where, some where just made to teach people to kick or punch, some are made strickly or show

They are a useful tool in teaching and practicing. A peson away fom his instuctors may use them to keep his moves correct.

Are they useful in a fight _ not as a total kata but if you take they individual moves and use them for defence -sure

Do the substitute for actual sparing, fighting, combat _ no-but you dont get killed or hospitalised if you goof

 

[LoneWolfandCub]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I know this is the kenpo area but remember in some styles the kata are for two people. They where developed with the idea of 2 people doing them togeather so that an opponet was in front of you thowing a punch or kick and you did block and counter to a person .

EPAK has 2 man set designed for two people so kenpo is familiar with forms designed for 2 people, the kenpo forms can be practiced this way also with an attacker, one of my instuctor taught most the forms with a physical attack coming at you while you perform the form from short 1 up to and past long 4. When you are performing these expressions of basics you should be able to visualize the attack and the self defence applications at some point and time.

:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

First, a statement: throw out the forms, throw out the system.

Second, one smaller point: the issue of the transitions in the forms was raised; specirfically, there was a comment that the transitions sometimes are not "true," to the techniques.

I'd argue that everything in kenpo--every single thing--has a fighting application. It seems to me that what you want to look for isn't just the applications of the techniques in the forms, as though the techs were presented one by one and in isolation, but the uses of each move in context.

Look, for example, at what Short 3 teaches about Twirling Wings by laying the technique out on, "exploded," form, like certain schematic drawings. Or look at what the transitions from "right" to "left," sides of the techniques in Long 4 have to say about continuing to control an opponent, or about employing those contact manipulations/ "chin na," moves/grappling methods of which kenpo supposedly has none.

I won't mention this again, so as not to re-start the same old same old--but I stand behind my previous remarks about too darn much quickly-learned "efficiency," when I read this thread.

Thanks.

 

[tonbo]

Kata has, in my opinion, plenty of uses. However, combat isn't one of them.

Yes, you may use elements of the kata in an actual situation, but, for the most part, real fights are more dynamic and cannot ever be "scripted".

Kata is designed to teach certain things about your style, and those things may differ from style to style. I believe that they have a good amount of value and should be kept, but, if they don't work for a particular style, then I don't see any reason that style can't drop them.

Aside from the fact that kata is part of my required curriculum, I practice kata to continually teach myself/remember what kinds of things flow together to make effective attacks. I also use kata for meditative purposes, for working on variation of speed and tempo, for working variations of hard and soft strikes, for working variations on set-up and finishing strikes........

But that's just one opinion.....

Peace--

 

[Elfan]

I find forms to be a useful method of exercising principles of motion and of self defense. It would seem pretty applicable to "combat" to have those internalized.

 

[MJS]

Once again, regarding the 'grappling' in Kenpo. There are different versions of grappling...standing and on the ground. Sure, it addresses the stand up type...grabs and holds. It does not address someone mounted on top of you trying to hit you.

I was hoping that this topic would not cause another heated debate like on past topics, but I can see that we are headed in that direction!!

MJS

 

[MJS]

Correct me if I'm wrong--wait a min..I don't have to worry about that now do I? Regarding things learned too quickly. Don't you want to be able to do that? I mean, whats the sense of learning something if you have to wait 2 yrs before you can really apply it? I might be reading that wrong, and forgive me if I am. Just the way it sounds to me.

I mean, if you can join the military and they teach you SD, shooting and all the other stuff, and then ship you over seas, dont you think that that isnt having to learn quickly? The same for a LEO. The academy is less than a year, and then you have some OJT. Then you're by yourself. You will not encounter every situation there is while you have a trainer to correct you. You will have to learn as you go.

MJS

 

[rmcrobertson]

We simply have very different aims in martial arts study. And, in point of fact, the difference in them can be explained in very traditional terms--young guys wanna fight; older guys wanna learn kata.

Both are valid--and not just in terms of theory.

 

[MJS]

So, are you saying that "older" people have no interest in SD? That they only want to do kata, nothing more? I understand and have acknowledged many many times that we all train for different reasons. However anybody wants to train is their business. They are entitled to do what ever they want. But maybe that 50 yo man that works in the city with the high crime rate, who parks his car in the lot and walks 10 min to his office and doesnt get out of work until 9pm, wants to be ready for the mugger that is waiting in the lot for his next victim. I don't think he'll be wanting to spend his training time doing kata, but instead some SD that is going to work!

MJS

 

[rmcrobertson]

Actually, I believe that I have more than several times posted that I was interested in self-defense quite a bit, and fighting not at all.

I've also noted that I cross-read, now that I'm allowed to. And to again repeat something I've already posted, it is worth noting that the practical, fighting styles of t'ai chi put kata first, precisely to ensure that the practictioner learns to defend themselves.

They also note that the forms, first the slow ones and then the fast ones, fill a room with things that you need--but without a good instructor, the door remains locked.

Hey! This cross-reading stuff works! I'm convinced!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Actually, I believe that I have more than several times posted that I was interested in self-defense quite a bit, and fighting not at all.

Still didn't answer the question Rob. What is the difference between the 2---fighting vs SD? If you get into a confrontation, you are defending yourself, which means that you have to strike your attacker in some way, shape or form. Therefore, is that not fighting? Remember, I'm not talking about UFC, I'm talking about SD. You are learning how to defend yourself if and when you are attacked.

Mike