Kata Break Down

[Zepp]

That's odd since most of the TKD forms were borrowed from Okinawan karate...........therefore variation on bunkai would be just as much an option in TKD as well.

Originally that was true, but few TKD orgs use the old forms nowadays. I train in a class that does, but I'm in the minority of TKDists here.

 

[TigerWoman]

Please no dis respect intended, but what you are talking about is performance-which is usally pretty tightly regulated. Bunkai is the analysis and application.
Which can add depth and meaning to the form. the variation come from the instructor or federation choses as how to apply the moves.
Todd

We do it for performance, yes, but we fully are taught what the applications are, and the meaning behind each. Otherwise they would look pretty silly and not have any effect. TKD forms were not made for tournament exhibition. TW

 

[loki09789]

Forms can be powerful 'visualization' tools that develop the mental side as well. Having a breakdown of how each particular technique or a combination of techniques can be applied can go a long way to developing that skill of focus and visualization.

I look at forms from two perspectives: Athletic development (Skill building) and Performance.

Athletic development is all about each individual step being used to develop strength, endurance, power, coordination....

Performance is like dance or music. There are rhythmns and phrases/stanzas that are linked with transitions. There might be tempo changes and intensity changes through out the form that can express a change of attacker, direction, desperation, surprise..... that are VERY important to maximizing forms for training growth. Even training or 'skill' forms can be used to develop a sensitivity to timing, rhythmn and tempo - like scales in musical instruments or voice training.

I really hate watching the tournament katas when it looks like one long sprint puncuated with some Kiais. THey are impressive and take great discipline and skill but they aren't what I want to use forms to do. I have few but I use them well to improve/maintain skill and exercise.

 

[RRouuselot]

Originally that was true, but few TKD orgs use the old forms nowadays. I train in a class that does, but I'm in the minority of TKDists here.

Oh that’s right. TKD is trying to “Korean-ize” itself by doing away with the very components (i.e.Okinawan Karate) that it was founded on and formed with, so now they use the new forms.:uhyeah:
It never ceases to amuse me how much TKD trys get people to think it is actually something the Koreans came up with on their own. I am not trying to sound rude or insult any TKD people but it just seems odd.......

 

[RRouuselot]

Please no dis respect intended, but what you are talking about is performance-which is usally pretty tightly regulated. Bunkai is the analysis and application.
Which can add depth and meaning to the form. the variation come from the instructor or federation choses as how to apply the moves.
Todd

Well said.

 

[TigerWoman]

Originally that was true, but few TKD orgs use the old forms nowadays. I train in a class that does, but I'm in the minority of TKDists here.

Our school primarily learns the newer Taekguek forms first, then after 1st dan learns the traditional forms, Chonji, Tangun, etc. I prefer the tradtional forms and find them much more challenging. My favorite form now is Kwang Gye. I don't know if the Palgwe forms are older but we don't do those. TW

 

[RRouuselot]

If MA people don’t think of kata, bunkai, and practical self-defense all the same vein then it puts them at a big disadvantage in their training.
What is the benefit of doing kata if you are not thinking about the applications of the techniques your are performing?
Other than the slight physical conditioning there is none.
What is the benefit of thinking/discovering bunkai if you only think of one application for one move in the kata?
To limit yourself in this way is to stop learning and stop improving.
When I was a very new beginner I used to think this way. Later I was taught otherwise. For the opening move of Naihanchi Shodan I have seen about 6 or 7 techniques with several variations on each. These techniques varied from throws to chokes in a standing position as well as a prone one using just the first move from Naihanchi.


Like the saying goes “Knowledge is power”.....and when I say “knowledge” in this sense I am not talking about being able to see a technique and know what it is or being able to demo a technique on a willing crash dummy student that knows what is coming and how to go with it.......what I am talking about is having that technique ingrained in you muscle memory (fascinating subject by the way) so that the technique does not have to by thought about in order to be executed.
The only way this level of “knowledge” can be obtained is through consistent serious training and practice of kata and the bunkai there of along with drills using these techniques and free sparring.
To give you an example.......one of my students was attacked in Roppongi (famous drinking spot in Tokyo..see foot note below) by 2 drunk Russians. One of them took a swing and my student choked him out until he turned blue and passed out with a move from Naihnachi Shodan.. The other Russian picked up/dragged his friend and left.
When my student was telling me about it the next day he said he never really thought about what to do it just “happened”. I am convinced the reason why he was able to execute that technique was due to the fact that we had practiced it 1,000s of times in fixed and free situations.



(Roppongi is a notorious watering hole district in Tokyo that has mostly foreigners in it. Fights are extremely common almost to the point of being unavoidable. I had a dojo strategically/conveniently located there about 8 years ago)

 

[Zepp]

Our school primarily learns the newer Taekguek forms first, then after 1st dan learns the traditional forms, Chonji, Tangun, etc. I prefer the tradtional forms and find them much more challenging. My favorite form now is Kwang Gye. I don't know if the Palgwe forms are older but we don't do those. TW

The Palgwe forms are older, but we don't do those either. Our forms are variations of the Okinawan/Japanese forms that were practiced in the old kwans before Tae Kwon Do had an official name. We've had a few discussions of them in TKD and Korean MA forums. Since we're about to steer this thread off-topic, we probably should pick up this disscussion there if you're interested.

What is the benefit of doing kata if you are not thinking about the applications of the techniques your are performing?...
...Like the saying goes “Knowledge is power”.....and when I say “knowledge” in this sense I am not talking about being able to see a technique and know what it is or being able to demo a technique on a willing crash dummy student that knows what is coming and how to go with it.......what I am talking about is having that technique ingrained in you muscle memory (fascinating subject by the way) so that the technique does not have to by thought about in order to be executed.
The only way this level of “knowledge” can be obtained is through consistent serious training and practice of kata and the bunkai there of along with drills using these techniques and free sparring.

RRouuselot, you mean there are other ways people practice forms?

It never ceases to amuse me how much TKD trys get people to think it is actually something the Koreans came up with on their own. I am not trying to sound rude or insult any TKD people but it just seems odd.......

Nationalistic pride gone awry. Understandable for a nation that was so recently dominated by another, and had a foreign culture forced on it, the way Korea has.

But that doesn't mean that the newer, "more Korean" forms are less effective either.

 

[RRouuselot]

But that doesn't mean that the newer, "more Korean" forms are less effective either.

It's kind of like "if it's not broken whay fix it?"

 

[Zepp]

It's kind of like "if it's not broken whay fix it?"

Perhaps because they thought they could do better? The Okinawans don't practice forms exactly the way the Chinese taught them to them.

 

[RRouuselot]

Perhaps because they thought they could do better? The Okinawans don't practice forms exactly the way the Chinese taught them to them.

Actually I think they only did it because they wanted to distance themselves from the Okinawan/Japanese connection.....since Koreans HATE Japanese ...and rightly so too.
However, there are many "forms" that were developed in Okinawa and the hard part is to find out whether they existed before or after the Chinese forms came over. With the TKD/TSD forms we know exactly where most of them cmae from.

 

[RRouuselot]

Perhaps because they thought they could do better? The Okinawans don't practice forms exactly the way the Chinese taught them to them.

Also....Its really tough to get Koreans to admit that TKD/TSD came from anywhere other than Korea, where as the Okinawans freely admit it the lump sum of what they do came from China at one point or another.

 

[The Kai]

Perhaps because they thought they could do better? The Okinawans don't practice forms exactly the way the Chinese taught them to them.

I guess the question is, were the Kata's changed to distance the Korean arts from thier "distastefull" Japanese origins. Or was a case of doing the forms in a better way?
Todd

 

[RRouuselot]

I guess the question is, were the Kata's changed to distance the Korean arts from thier "distastefull" Japanese origins. Or was a case of doing the forms in a better way?
Todd

If it was a case of doing the forms in a "better way" then specifically how did they improve them?
Did they improve every single bunkai found in each kata?
Why did they need "improving"?

 

[Brother John]

I guess the question is, were the Kata's changed to distance the Korean arts from thier "distastefull" Japanese origins. Or was a case of doing the forms in a better way?
Todd

I don't think that they were changed in order to be better. I've learned both and the TSD ones aren't an "improvement"...just different. Actually the person who taught them to me in TSD was more knowledgeable and more experienced than the person in Shotokan...so his explanation and interpretation of the 'bunkai' was better. But I feel that this is due to the man, and not the art.

The Korean systems do this a LOT. Take arts from other countries and Say that they are "Korean arts". Too bad.

Your Brother
John

 

[RRouuselot]

I don't think that they were changed in order to be better. I've learned both and the TSD ones aren't an "improvement"...just different. Actually the person who taught them to me in TSD was more knowledgeable and more experienced than the person in Shotokan...so his explanation and interpretation of the 'bunkai' was better. But I feel that this is due to the man, and not the art.

The Korean systems do this a LOT. Take arts from other countries and Say that they are "Korean arts". Too bad.

Your Brother
John

That statement doesn’t really surprise me too much. I have been to all the Shotokan "Honbu dojo" in Japan and have yet to meet a Shotokan instructor who was knowledgeable in "bunkai" beyond the basic kick-punch type of applications. Therefore if the Honbu does know /teach any in depth bunkai applications then it makes sense that the dojo connected to it would not have been passed that knowledge as well.
In all honesty it never fails to amaze me to find out that the Japanese don't know a whole heck of a lot about karate.
(I no doubt just ticked off all the "Japanese stylists" by that comment but before you react to it do this: Study in Japan then study in Okinawa....compare both...you will see what I mean.)

 

[Ippon Ken]

The Palgwe forms are older, but we don't do those either. Our forms are variations of the Okinawan/Japanese forms that were practiced in the old kwans before Tae Kwon Do had an official name. We've had a few discussions of them in TKD and Korean MA forums. Since we're about to steer this thread off-topic, we probably should pick up this disscussion there if you're interested.


RRouuselot, you mean there are other ways people practice forms?


Nationalistic pride gone awry. Understandable for a nation that was so recently dominated by another, and had a foreign culture forced on it, the way Korea has.

But that doesn't mean that the newer, "more Korean" forms are less effective either.

Well, I don't buy the oppressor excuse. First off, why didn't Gen Choi just learn a form of Chuan Fa (Kung Fu), rather than Shotokan karate from the Shotokan? Korea is really close to China too, and they like the Okinawans and Japanese before the Meiji Restoration, thought of the Chinese as the most refined and respected culture in East Asia. Additionally, wasn't Shoto (Gichin Funakoshi) an Okinawan, not a Japanese? If an Okinawan is Japanese (not by citizenry, but blood) then so are the Koreans. I guess the Filipinos are really Indonesians. The Okinawans were a conquered nation too, so where is the shame in learning the art of another nation that Japan conquered? Imagine the motto "art of the oppressed to vanquish the oppressor". Why would the Koreans dislike the Okinawans when they were in the same boat?

You know that most countries have a strong sense of nationalism. The Koreans wanted to get their Olympic and worldwide propers, like Japan did for Judo, so they invented this story of TKD being an art taken from Korean Tae Kyon, a kid's kicking game. C'mon now with the Japanese hate thing when we're talking about an OKINAWAN artform. People need to stop getting Okinawan and Japan and Karate (Japanese for emptyhand- the revised Japanized term) twisted with Toudi (Tang Hand- the original Okinawan term). Hey, now you see where Tang Soo Do got its name. It's like magic that clue thing. Get one--- a clue.

When will the Korean MAs types and stylists get their stories straight?!

Kenpo from America, is a mixture of Chinese and Okinawan, not only Japanese MAs, principles. It also has western boxing and streetfighting from Hawaii in it. Its forms were not passed down for generations. They were formulated by martial artists and streetfighters who understood a lot of a little bit and that's why you have "detailed" names for the forms like "Short form #1" or "Long Form #2". What would you name it? "Shisochin-esque Shadow Slapping Fugyugata Ichi"?

It had no real correlation to the principles of Okinawan karate or Chuan Fa at the higher levels because all of those Hawaiian guys were barely above average in any tried and true system. They got together to fill in the gaps. This guy knew a little of this, this cat a bit of that, so on. So that is why you see the bunkai (analysis/application) before the form. Kind of like writing a novel without any notes, rough draft, outline or structure. Fly by your gi "chuan shu". What's funny is the term "Kenpo Karate". Fist Law/Style Empty-Hand. Kind of redundant. Tells you a little about the founders of Kenpo Karate. Still, there are awesome practitoners and reps like Chuck Lidell, so it must really be the stylist not the style. At least sometimes.

Hey, Kenpo is a lot like TKD, in that Gen. Choi was only a Nidan (Second Dan) when he decided to make his "own" art that they originally called Tang Soo Do, but which he changed to TKD. Funny how when a man learns a little it CAN be a dangerous thing. How about Ken-nope, Egotistical Ryu, Take Ones Doe or Asumme-a-Jutsu? ! People are so funny and quaint in their megalomania!

Read and know for yourself. Don't just take your style's practitioner's words for it. There IS truth out there, you know.

 

[Zepp]

Someone seems to be taking the issue a bit personally.

Well, I don't buy the oppressor excuse. First off, why didn't Gen Choi just learn a form of Chuan Fa (Kung Fu), rather than Shotokan karate from the Shotokan? Korea is really close to China too, and they like the Okinawans and Japanese before the Meiji Restoration, thought of the Chinese as the most refined and respected culture in East Asia.

Because General Choi wasn't allowed to learn Chuan Fa. He chose to take advantage of being able to get a better education in Japan than he could in Korea. This included his martial arts education. He studied Karate because he could.

Additionally, wasn't Shoto (Gichin Funakoshi) an Okinawan, not a Japanese? If an Okinawan is Japanese (not by citizenry, but blood) then so are the Koreans. I guess the Filipinos are really Indonesians. The Okinawans were a conquered nation too, so where is the shame in learning the art of another nation that Japan conquered? Imagine the motto "art of the oppressed to vanquish the oppressor". Why would the Koreans dislike the Okinawans when they were in the same boat?

No one ever said the Koreans had any particular dislike for the Okinawans. But Okinawa was still part of Japan after World War II (and didn't make any effort to break away this century that I'm aware of) so there's no particular reason why they shouldn't associate Okinawa with Japan. It's not as though Korea has any special cultural ties with Okinawa. At least, not any more so than they have with Japan.

When will the Korean MAs types and stylists get their stories straight?!

The stories were convoluted to begin with, so don't count on it happening in your lifetime.

Hey, Kenpo is a lot like TKD, in that Gen. Choi was only a Nidan (Second Dan) when he decided to make his "own" art that they originally called Tang Soo Do, but which he changed to TKD. Funny how when a man learns a little it CAN be a dangerous thing. How about Ken-nope, Egotistical Ryu, Take Ones Doe or Asumme-a-Jutsu? ! People are so funny and quaint in their megalomania!

If you knew at least as much about Korean MA history as the practitioners you seem to think are so ignorant, you'd know that General Choi was not the sole creator of Tae Kwon Do, and that he is not associated with the term Tang Soo Do.

Read and know for yourself. Don't just take your style's practitioner's words for it. There IS truth out there, you know.

We do know.

I don't know if you're rant was directed at me, but I would like to point out that I was not defending S. Korea's decision to hide the Japanese and Okinawan origins of what is now called Tae Kwon Do. I was explaining what I thought their reasons were. Never said I thought they were good reasons.

Edit: I think this thread has been steered far enough off-topic. If anyone wants to whine and moan about how Korean MA's aren't really Korean, maybe it's time to move it into the Korean MA forum.

 

[RRouuselot]

Well, I don't buy the oppressor excuse. First off, why didn't Gen Choi just learn a form of Chuan Fa (Kung Fu), rather than Shotokan karate from the Shotokan? Korea is really close to China too, ..........

Uuuuhhhhh because China is a Communist country and Choi is from South Korea and thereby forbidden to travel to any Communist country.

 

[Ippon Ken]

Uuuuhhhhh because China is a Communist country and Choi is from South Korea and thereby forbidden to travel to any Communist country.

Why the smart assed tone? At the time Choi learned Shotokan China was NOT a communist country. Japan had occupied Manchuria, and he was stationed there. Like Gogen Yamaguchi and other Japanese army types, Nakayama comes to mind, he could have learned Chuan Fa. Maybe you guys should know more about the art of karate in general or general world history, especially if you're a karate-ka and especially if you claim to be an Okinawan stylist, Bogu Rob! Too much punchy-kicky in the heady when doing jiyu kumite, Bobby!

Choi wanted props, and credit and at the same time wanted to discredit the Japanese anyway he could. Plus $$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!

Take One's Doe!

How ya' like them apples?

Now go learn real karate and real karate history. Without-A-Clue Ryu is not a legit style.