Kata and Forms...???

[Danjo]

....forms have no value to me.

Now, with that qualifier, I can agree with you.

 

[still learning]

I will vote for necessary, because some of the greatest Karate masters in the world thought so. Every technique has a common thread that runs through it, and that thread is principles of movement, and displacement of power. Sure, you can learn individual techniques, but the principles of movement, balance, and the proper use of power are inherent within the kata practice. If done right, over a long period of time, kata will produce a well rounded fighter. Learning moves are nothing more then individual techniques, but, the principles of proper movement, along with proper breathing, and the use of power done within the framework of kata, will produce the perfect fighting machine. I would love to say that this is my opinion, but it is not only mine, but the majority of some of the greatest karate masters that ever lived. "Read it and weep".

Hello, If one trains "very hard" and daily..everyone would improve...
When I watch my daughter wrestle everyday...there bodies and muscles, endurence improves "Greatly" vs...those who don't push themselves..

True masters...practice harder then most students...'

What makes "Tiger Woods great?" ...NOT Katas...he practice and practice till the practice becomes perfect......Same for any martial artist...and one does NOT need KATA"S to practice...

Anyone can gain..skills if they practice correctly and with intensity everyday....and NEVER do Kata's and still be great....

See any other sports do Kata's? ...please learn the defination of the what a TRUE Kata is consider here...

Aloha, Man who climbs mountain...does NO kata's climbing techniques...to get there...HE just DOES IT!

 

[AirborneE6]

Kata - one technique; Waza - do it with somebody else. Form; string Kata together in a sequence in an imaginary fight; practicing basics, movement, maintaining or improving balance, coordination, flexibility - - - all good.

Necessary? It depends. It depends on the Art, System and Style - - - it depends. It depends on what you want or need. I'm 66, almost 67. I used to heavy lift, swim and train. I hike now and do my Tae Kwon Do forms for fitness and the other benefits. Why TKD? Because they're hard, linear and appropriate for someone my age. I don't do the Kenpo forms anymore. I guess Shorin Ryu or Shoto-Kan would be OK too, but I like the TKD best.

I think forms are good practice that will carry into advanced age with multiple benefits.

 

[Danjo]

Each kata is a fighting system, or fighting philosophy. It doesn't mimick an entire fight per se, but rather gives a fighting theory, i.e., the way techniques blend together and how to maintain balance and grace when transitioning and generating power and developing rhythmic endurance. Mistakes are made when one tries to make a kata into something it is not, i.e. try to envision fighting one opponent etc., while practicing it. When you see a kata, you see the intent of the creator. You see how the creator of the form thought and fought. Each one has a flavor that gives the art a specific feel or "style". To see what the founder of an art intended, look at how they taught their forms (and tricks if your system has them). Look at Sorin Ryu's version of Nihanchi Shodan, versus Shotokan's Tekki Shodan for instance, and you will get a feel for the difference in the founder's philosophy. Forms and pre-set tricks will show you the style of an art and will distinguish it from other similar arts.

 

[Danjo]

I understand perfectly that forms have no value to me.

James Wing Woo is a long time Kung Fu expert who had this to say about sparring:

“When it comes to sparring, my advice is don’t do it. You build up too much respect for the other person and you don’t really want to hurt him. Remember this: I want you to punch him all the way through up to your elbow. I don’t want you to just hit him with a fist! And someone’s going to get hurt. Chinese martial arts aren’t the same as Western boxing. The boxer goes for three-minute rounds, and then he rests. Boxers go for twelve rounds these days, not fifteen. But when you’re in a fight, you don’t get a rest! You don’t get any three-minute rounds. If you can’t do it for real, you’d better go ahead and get out of here! Also, a boxer doesn’t worry about anything from the waist down….You don’t want to set your hands up and fight, or watch each other and dance around for ten minutes. They don’t happen that way. Not real fights, anyway. So why should you do it? It doesn’t make any sense!....This is not to say that you can’t do techniques back and forth. I do have students do things like Chi Sau, or arm blocking like the Three Stars Drill. The purpose is to get extension in the arm to get it pumped up and learn how to roll the arm when you touch. Touch and roll. When you roll the bones, it takes the shock out of the impact. The blow doesn’t hit as hard. If the arms clash, you’re not rolling. The arms need to deflect off each other, to get the extension and roll. So when you touch somebody, you should be able to deflect them away. The two-man drills still aren’t fighting---they’re training the arms, training the legs, training the body.” (James Wing Woo, Nei Jia Quan, 336-338)


Now, you may not agree with everything he says, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Sparring has a place IMO. And, if nothing else it's a lot of fun. But it's not the best way to train for fighting.

 

[MattJ]

James Wing Woo is a long time Kung Fu expert who had this to say about sparring:

“When it comes to sparring, my advice is don’t do it. You build up too much respect for the other person and you don’t really want to hurt him. Remember this: I want you to punch him all the way through up to your elbow. I don’t want you to just hit him with a fist! And someone’s going to get hurt. Chinese martial arts aren’t the same as Western boxing.

Yes, this is unfortuantely the same tired "too-deadly" argument that existed before the UFC. Proven utterly incorrect.

The boxer goes for three-minute rounds, and then he rests. Boxers go for twelve rounds these days, not fifteen. But when you’re in a fight, you don’t get a rest! You don’t get any three-minute rounds. If you can’t do it for real, you’d better go ahead and get out of here! Also, a boxer doesn’t worry about anything from the waist down….You don’t want to set your hands up and fight, or watch each other and dance around for ten minutes. They don’t happen that way. Not real fights, anyway. So why should you do it? It doesn’t make any sense!....

He is clearly addressing boxing, and not MMA style full-range sparring here, which voids most of his argument.

This is not to say that you can’t do techniques back and forth.

This voids his own argument. Sparring *is* doing techniques back and forth, in a free-form environment.

Now, you may not agree with everything he says, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Sparring has a place IMO. And, if nothing else it's a lot of fun. But it's not the best way to train for fighting.

I would love to know what is better.

 

[Danjo]

Yes, this is unfortuantely the same tired "too-deadly" argument that existed before the UFC. Proven utterly incorrect.

Nope. The UFC proved that in a sporting event, with rules, where two trained martial artists compete each knowing the other is also skilled is not the same as a real fight.

He is clearly addressing boxing, and not MMA style full-range sparring here, which voids most of his argument.

No it doesn't. He also went on about Kickboxing and other events. I simply didn't feel like typing out another two long paragraphs.

This voids his own argument. Sparring *is* doing techniques back and forth, in a free-form environment.

Ostensibly true about sparring, but it isn't typical. Two-man drills are not typically what is thought of as sparring these days. The free-form stuff you mention typically turns into a MMA style sporting match, rather than a real fight where the attacker is not likely to be a trained martial artist nor does he suspect his victim of being one. Even if both are, they are not likely to "square off" and feel each other out the way one does in a sparring match.

If your sparring matches consist of one person being blindsided by another person who is brutal and relentlessly pounding at the guy until he is overcome, forcing the attackee to either defend himself or get beat down, then you are training realistically.

If you square off like Liddell and Coutre, then you are not preparing for a real fight.

I would love to know what is better.

Either the type of scenario drills that I mentioned above, or else development of techniques via tricks and forms.

 

[MattJ]

Nope. The UFC proved that in a sporting event, with rules, where two trained martial artists compete each knowing the other is also skilled is not the same as a real fight.

Huh. The early UFC's? Rules? Trained fighters? Dunno, bro.....only two rules in the early ones (no eye gouging, no throat shots). Groin shots, elbows to the back of the head, hair pulling, kidney kicks, stomping downed opponents, all legal, and all done in the early ones. No gloves or pads, either. Sound very sporting to you? Me neither.

And the training of some the early fighters, like Tank Abbot, is questionable at best. But even then, no one claimed that the UFC was equivalent to a real fight. Just he closest thing, which I agree with.

No it doesn't. He also went on about Kickboxing and other events. I simply didn't feel like typing out another two long paragraphs.

Fair enough, but my response is accurate to what you posted. I am not a mind-reader.

Ostensibly true about sparring, but it isn't typical. Two-man drills are not typically what is thought of as sparring these days. The free-form stuff you mention typically turns into a MMA style sporting match, rather than a real fight where the attacker is not likely to be a trained martial artist nor does he suspect his victim of being one. Even if both are, they are not likely to "square off" and feel each other out the way one does in a sparring match.

If your sparring matches consist of one person being blindsided by another person who is brutal and relentlessly pounding at the guy until he is overcome, forcing the attackee to either defend himself or get beat down, then you are training realistically.

That is a fair point, and I classify fights and assaults as different things. Fights have warnings ie; "You looking at my girl, mfr?! Meet me outside, and I will stomp you!!" Etc. These are very common, and to ignore the social/psychological aspects of these encounters is to ignore a large part of self-defense.

But I'm sure you knew that already.

Assaults (to me) are like what you describe - no warning.

If you square off like Liddell and Coutre, then you are not preparing for a real fight.

See my above response. You are using a very narrow definition of 'real fight.' But even assuming the original assault had no warning, and you lived (LOL), the mechanics of the assault and response will not be any different than what you would encounter in a sparring match. A punch is a punch, etc.

Either the type of scenario drills that I mentioned above, or else development of techniques via tricks and forms.

Yeah, we will have to disagree there.

 

[seasoned]

Hello, If one trains "very hard" and daily..everyone would improve...
When I watch my daughter wrestle everyday...there bodies and muscles, endurence improves "Greatly" vs...those who don't push themselves..

True masters...practice harder then most students...'

What makes "Tiger Woods great?" ...NOT Katas...he practice and practice till the practice becomes perfect......Same for any martial artist...and one does NOT need KATA"S to practice...

Anyone can gain..skills if they practice correctly and with intensity everyday....and NEVER do Kata's and still be great....

See any other sports do Kata's? ...please learn the defination of the what a TRUE Kata is consider here...

Aloha, Man who climbs mountain...does NO kata's climbing techniques...to get there...HE just DOES IT!

You must remember, you are "still learning".

 

[Xinglu]

While I understand that some people see no value in them, I cannot see how a person can assert with any soundness that they are unilaterally useless. I respect a persons right to train however they see fit, however IMHO, I believe that forms are necessary and essential to becoming a well rounded martial artist.

Here is why: What are techniques but movements originating from a form and done with a partner? To that end the reverse could be said, what is a form but a series of linked techniques.

Forms are a great conditioning tool as well. Do your forms 10 times each right in a row everyday and watch as your stamina increases, your techniques improve, and your stances become stronger. You see not everyone has a gym membership or decent training equipment at home. Running is good, but it doesn't get you in "martial-shape." Only the dynamic movement of martial training can do that. I have seen many athletes and body builders who could not finish a well rounded martial conditioning work out (forms being the central pillar).

Speaking of stances - forms teach fluid movement between stances. They condition the legs so they are stronger, they help teach you how to move in combat and still be grounded and centered. They can also be applied to movement in multiple attacker situations.

Furthermore, each movement in a form has multiple uses. One movement or "technique" could be applied as a throw, qinna, or strike, and depending on the manner of attacks one movement with minor adjustments can result in 10 + practical applications and thus be the basis 10 + techniques.

On another note, while SOME martial arts have been adapted into sports, not all are nor should they be labeled as such. My Baguazhang instructor used to say, "I teach meditation, the fact that the meditation creates sound and able fighters is incidental." While he intentionally overstated that, his point is sound. Those who learn martial arts to sport fight, where not in his opinion martial artists, they were sport fighters. I share this view. For me the difference between a martial artist and a sport fighter is found in intention and priorities. To each their own.

I do not believe that the martial artist need solely concern themselves with physical confrontation. To me, a martial artist must transcend the thuggery of a street and sport fighter, and it is this transcendence and differing perspective that makes the martial arts more than just a fighting methodology. The practitioner more than just a "boxer." Boxers look for fights. All sport fighters do. That is the nature of it. A martial artist looks to stop fighting. A subtle yet very important distinction in my eyes.

Anyways, there is my .50¢ on the issue.

 

[Kenpo17]

Forms and Katas are useful because they take a group of techniques that flow together. Also, you learn in the forms techniques that you may not learn in the actual curriculum. For example I now know several techniques inwhich if they were not in a form I wouldn't know them at all. For competitions forms are very good because you can change them up to fit your style as well, and they look cool.