Kata and Forms...???

[marlon]

I didn't notice...Congratulations Danjo!

Marlon

 

[MattJ]

Quote by Danjo:

Usfeul for what?

For fight training.

Nothing wrong with them, but as one gets older, these things fade. One is more prone to injury from an exclusive diet of this type of training also.

Agreed. But not all sparring has to be full-range-ultra-full-contact, not all weight-lifting has to be 1-rep-max, etc.....

Sporting ability fades when one gets into one's 30's, however, perfection of form and technique can continue for decades longer. One may still need to be able to defend oneself long after one no longer competes.

I do not refer to competition. Sparring is the best and quickest way to realistically aquire and retain timing and distancing sensitivities that occur in any type of fight.

While bag-work, sparring and weight lifting can help, the way that one trains to fight using these training methods, keeps you in the mentality and habit of "squaring off" with someone and slugging it out. Bag-work and sparring alone can actually limit your abilities rather than enhance them.

I disagree - it depends on what type of sparring you do. That is unfortunately a very common attitude in kenpo.

Hello,
Forms/kata... Useless...? A waste of time...?
Weight training, more useful?

Are you serious?

Absolutely.

I have never heard them referred to in such a negative light.

Your number, in the continuum, must be #5, then...

Thank you for your input!
Milt G.

I mean no offense, but my own experience has guided me to this conclusion. Not a popular opinion in kenpo circles, but I like to think that Mr Parker would have appreciated some critical thinking.

 

[Danjo]

Quote by Danjo:



For fight training.



Agreed. But not all sparring has to be full-range-ultra-full-contact, not all weight-lifting has to be 1-rep-max, etc.....



I do not refer to competition. Sparring is the best and quickest way to realistically aquire and retain timing and distancing sensitivities that occur in any type of fight.



I disagree - it depends on what type of sparring you do. That is unfortunately a very common attitude in kenpo.



Absolutely.



I mean no offense, but my own experience has guided me to this conclusion. Not a popular opinion in kenpo circles, but I like to think that Mr Parker would have appreciated some critical thinking.

Critical thinking is more than just being critical of everything you don't understand. You must not think that the reason that what you say is not popular is due to your being a "heretic". The reason it's unpopular is because it's not true.

Sparring is not the best way to train for an actual fight. Not even close. Real fights do not occur like a sparring match. They are brutal nasty things that do not look pretty in the least. Sparring trains you for a contest against other individuals who have skill themselves and know that you have skill as well. Many of us have trained in the martial arts for many many years (31 for me). And many of us have been in a lot of fights (more than I can remember). We have our opinions based on our experience, not based on some orthodoxy.

Kata is not the only valuable training method. Pre-set techniques are also very usful for ingraining certain responses. Sparring has it's uses too. It can get you used to getting hit, for instance in order to reduce timidity and fear. But it's main function is for competition scenarios.

The old "Kumite" or Kakadamashi training was more of a limited scenario type of sparring where certain goals were set before a match began. Even in our school, our sparring has a goal. Sometimes Prof. Bishop will tell one to be the attacker and the other the defender. The attacker is using a tackle or grab, and the defender is to prevent or defend against it. etc.

When I spar with people, it's to teach them something. Where they need work, where their stances are sloppy and thus making them off balance, where their holes are in their defences etc.

Once in a while, we have good old fashioned sparring matches where it's like a contest of sorts and we just go at it, but sparring is not the main thing that we do.

You're hardly the first one on the block with your attitude, but we'll see how long you retain it if you keep on training over the years.

 

[MattJ]

Critical thinking is more than just being critical of everything you don't understand.

What makes you think I don't understand forms?

You must not think that the reason that what you say is not popular is due to your being a "heretic". The reason it's unpopular is because it's not true.

I'm only considered a heretic in kenpo circles. Your truth is not reflected in other styles, either.

Sparring is not the best way to train for an actual fight. Not even close. Real fights do not occur like a sparring match.

Nothing is like a real fight. But full-range, contact sparring is the closest thing by far.

They are brutal nasty things that do not look pretty in the least. Sparring trains you for a contest against other individuals who have skill themselves and know that you have skill as well.

Again, it depends on what type of sparring you are referring to.

Many of us have trained in the martial arts for many many years (31 for me). And many of us have been in a lot of fights (more than I can remember). We have our opinions based on our experience, not based on some orthodoxy.

That's wonderful..........????

Kata is not the only valuable training method. Pre-set techniques are also very usful for ingraining certain responses. Sparring has it's uses too. It can get you used to getting hit, for instance in order to reduce timidity and fear. But it's main function is for competition scenarios.

I disagree. See my above comments about timing and distancing.

The old "Kumite" or Kakadamashi training was more of a limited scenario type of sparring where certain goals were set before a match began. Even in our school, our sparring has a goal. Sometimes Prof. Bishop will tell one to be the attacker and the other the defender. The attacker is using a tackle or grab, and the defender is to prevent or defend against it. etc.

What makes you think that no one else is talking about 'goal oriented' sparring? That is part of what I'm talking about.

When I spar with people, it's to teach them something. Where they need work, where their stances are sloppy and thus making them off balance, where their holes are in their defences etc.

Pretty condescending - you have nothing to work on?

Once in a while, we have good old fashioned sparring matches where it's like a contest of sorts and we just go at it, but sparring is not the main thing that we do.

You're hardly the first one on the block with your attitude, but we'll see how long you retain it if you keep on training over the years.

Oh, I get it. You think I'm some n00b, and can talk down to me, etc. Pretty poor attitude, and ignorant considering you obviously know nothing about my training - kenpo or otherwise. But thanks for the tip, and have a nice day.

My opinion stands.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

Critical thinking is more than just being critical of everything you don't understand. You must not think that the reason that what you say is not popular is due to your being a "heretic". The reason it's unpopular is because it's not true.

Sparring is not the best way to train for an actual fight. Not even close. Real fights do not occur like a sparring match. They are brutal nasty things that do not look pretty in the least. Sparring trains you for a contest against other individuals who have skill themselves and know that you have skill as well. Many of us have trained in the martial arts for many many years (31 for me). And many of us have been in a lot of fights (more than I can remember). We have our opinions based on our experience, not based on some orthodoxy.

Kata is not the only valuable training method. Pre-set techniques are also very usful for ingraining certain responses. Sparring has it's uses too. It can get you used to getting hit, for instance in order to reduce timidity and fear. But it's main function is for competition scenarios.

The old "Kumite" or Kakadamashi training was more of a limited scenario type of sparring where certain goals were set before a match began. Even in our school, our sparring has a goal. Sometimes Prof. Bishop will tell one to be the attacker and the other the defender. The attacker is using a tackle or grab, and the defender is to prevent or defend against it. etc.

When I spar with people, it's to teach them something. Where they need work, where their stances are sloppy and thus making them off balance, where their holes are in their defences etc.

Once in a while, we have good old fashioned sparring matches where it's like a contest of sorts and we just go at it, but sparring is not the main thing that we do.

You're hardly the first one on the block with your attitude, but we'll see how long you retain it if you keep on training over the years.

My gathering is this is what makes a martial artist based off his skill level:

#1 Kempos/Combinations/Punch techniques/Dm's practiced both right sides step in punch/right sided hook punch/grabbed from right side of body, also practiced left sided left step in punch/left hoo punch/grabbed from left side.
#2 Forms, practiced both tai chi speed, free flow speed, and, full speed ahead-to understand what bunkai you can subconsciously perform.
#3 Point Sparring-to teach the martial artist how to take openings/counter right away
#4 Kumite/MMA environment sparring
#5 Weapon defenses, knife/gun/club

(I agree Dan was on track, but Mr. M is also right, you have to "Marry" it all together)

All of these practiced properly will boost the martial artist's skill level far beyond that of a beginning martial artist without any training-hence, white belt/black belt/mastery level, etc...

 

[Danjo]

What makes you think I don't understand forms?

Your response of them being "Totally useless, and a waste of time"

I'm only considered a heretic in kenpo circles. Your truth is not reflected in other styles, either.

??? Which truth? That forms have value in training and are not "Totally useless, and a waste of time"?

Nothing is like a real fight. But full-range, contact sparring is the closest thing by far.

No it isn't, but this will not be solved via argument.

Again, it depends on what type of sparring you are referring to.

Sure.

That's wonderful..........????

It's true. Whether it's wonderful or not is a matter of opinion.

I disagree. See my above comments about timing and distancing.

For a contest, yes. For real fighting, no.

What makes you think that no one else is talking about 'goal oriented' sparring? That is part of what I'm talking about.

Great. Then we agree on something.

Pretty condescending - you have nothing to work on?

I always have things to work on. I tend to spar those of lower rank in my training. Very few of them push me to any limits. Call it condescending if you like, but I'm just telling the truth.

Oh, I get it. You think I'm some n00b, and can talk down to me, etc. Pretty poor attitude, and ignorant considering you obviously know nothing about my training - kenpo or otherwise. But thanks for the tip, and have a nice day.

Well, when you come on a thread and tell everyone that they're full of it, you tend to get people that are going to disagree with you. If you consider that "talking down to you", then it might have something to do with the fact that you came on here doing the same thing to us. Where were you years ago so that you could tell me that bag-work, weight lifting and sparring had value?

As to your training: I take it that you 1) Spar 2) lift weights and 3) Do bag-work. Am I close?

As to your Kenpo training and BJJ training, I have no idea how much of either you've had. I only guess that it was not enough Kenpo to teach you the value of the forms you learned since you view them as "Totally useless, and a waste of time".

My opinion stands.

That's because you have come with an a priore bias that tells you that forms are "Totally useless, and a waste of time". Notice that none of us said that sparring, weight lifting and bag-work were totally useless, and a waste of time. They have value. You, on the other hand, only show that you have failed to see the value in forms. Sparring, bag-work and weight lifting and forms are not mutually exclusive as you seem to indicate. However, you need to be careful when making such broad statements. I personally don't meditate, but I don't doubt those that tell me that meditation helps them merely because I have failed to appreciate it personally.

 

[marlon]

MattJ please define the type of sparring you are speaking of.
also can you explain what you find totally useless about forms

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[mwd0818]

What makes you think I don't understand forms?



I'm only considered a heretic in kenpo circles. Your truth is not reflected in other styles, either.



Nothing is like a real fight. But full-range, contact sparring is the closest thing by far.



Again, it depends on what type of sparring you are referring to.



That's wonderful..........????



I disagree. See my above comments about timing and distancing.



What makes you think that no one else is talking about 'goal oriented' sparring? That is part of what I'm talking about.



Pretty condescending - you have nothing to work on?



Oh, I get it. You think I'm some n00b, and can talk down to me, etc. Pretty poor attitude, and ignorant considering you obviously know nothing about my training - kenpo or otherwise. But thanks for the tip, and have a nice day.

My opinion stands.

:hb:

 

[mwd0818]

Totally useless, and a waste of time, IMHO. Weight-training, bag-work, sparring......all galactically more useful.

:jedi:

For anything to be "totally useless" it must be devoid of all value. If this is the case, then you find no use in the timing, exercise, flow and pattern of katas. Nothing done in air has value, and practicing punches, kicks, stances and blocks without the threat of real combat is the equivalent of reading romance novels, which while perhaps entertaining to some, has no self-defense value either.

I'd at least understand someone who said kata is not as valuable as contact training. I disagree, but based on your training and history, sure - maybe it's not been the most valuable training tool for you. But to be devoid of all value? Then you obviously need to change the way you do katas.

 

[MattJ]

Your response of them being "Totally useless, and a waste of time"

So, you don't like my response, therefore I don't know what I'm talking about? I suppose I could take the same logic-less tack, but what the hell. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I would also note that your histrionics about the term 'useless' should be directed at the thread starter, not me - that was one of the options. I just happen to agree with it. I assume he put it there as a viable response.

??? Which truth? That forms have value in training and are not "Totally useless, and a waste of time"?

Whatever truth *you* were referring to in *your* response to me.

No it isn't, but this will not be solved via argument.

Ok, but you are wrong. J/K

It's true. Whether it's wonderful or not is a matter of opinion.

Awesome! I'm REALLY impressed!

For a contest, yes. For real fighting, no.

I disagree. Those elements are very difficult to train otherwise. I have seen nothing else that does it better or faster.

I always have things to work on. I tend to spar those of lower rank in my training. Very few of them push me to any limits. Call it condescending if you like, but I'm just telling the truth.

Well, I don't doubt you own lower ranks. I personally like to work with people my level or above as often as possible, as I feel that improves my own skill level (although the ego is indeed hard to swallow).

Well, when you come on a thread and tell everyone that they're full of it, you tend to get people that are going to disagree with you.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't tell anyone they are full of it, pal. Don't put words in my mouth. *I* wasn't the one making condescending inferences about anyone else's training. I was merely stating my opinion using a description offerred IN THE ORIGINAL POST. Please switch to decaf.

If you consider that "talking down to you", then it might have something to do with the fact that you came on here doing the same thing to us. Where were you years ago so that you could tell me that bag-work, weight lifting and sparring had value?

What are you talking about? Do I know you? How am I talking down to anyone? I haven't insulted anyone by, say......inferring they were clueless n00bs, did I?

As to your Kenpo training and BJJ training, I have no idea how much of either you've had. I only guess that it was not enough Kenpo to teach you the value of the forms you learned since you view them as "Totally useless, and a waste of time".

You are guessing wrong, again.

That's because you have come with an a priore bias that tells you that forms are "Totally useless, and a waste of time". Notice that none of us said that sparring, weight lifting and bag-work were totally useless, and a waste of time.

I used a response provided in the original post. But if something is totally useless, we can a priori assume that it is, in fact, a waste of time, yes? Is there any other way to see it at that point?

They have value. You, on the other hand, only show that you have failed to see the value in forms. Sparring, bag-work and weight lifting and forms are not mutually exclusive as you seem to indicate. However, you need to be careful when making such broad statements. I personally don't meditate, but I don't doubt those that tell me that meditation helps them merely because I have failed to appreciate it personally.

I haven't "failed" to see the value. I see it quite clearly.

 

[Danjo]

So, you don't like my response, therefore I don't know what I'm talking about?

No, the fact that you see no value in forms is what tells me that you don't know what you are talking about. We could disagree about how valuable they are all day.

I would also note that your histrionics about the term 'useless' should be directed at the thread starter, not me - that was one of the options. I just happen to agree with it. I assume he put it there as a viable response.

Fair enough. Then I take back what I said about your talking down to us.

Whatever truth *you* were referring to in *your* response to me.

I'm saying that it's not true that forms have no value. It'd be like a caveman saying a computer has no value simply because he didn't understand the value. The only thing that he is really saying is that he fails to see the value.

Ok, but you are wrong. J/K

Natch.

Awesome! I'm REALLY impressed!

Good to be impressed.

I disagree. Those elements are very difficult to train otherwise. I have seen nothing else that does it better or faster.

I'm sure that you haven't or you wouldn't hold your opinion.

Well, I don't doubt you own lower ranks. I personally like to work with people my level or above as often as possible, as I feel that improves my own skill level (although the ego is indeed hard to swallow).

I do not select lower ranks to protect my ego. I actually enjoy competative sparing and do so regularly with those that do best me in various tourneys etc. Win some, lose some. My point is that we use sparring to train specific things for the most part. We don't pretend that it mimicks a real fight.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't tell anyone they are full of it, pal. Don't put words in my mouth. *I* wasn't the one making condescending inferences about anyone else's training. I was merely stating my opinion using a description offerred IN THE ORIGINAL POST. Please switch to decaf.

Okay. You didn't tell anyone that they are full of it. You just came on a thread where everyone said that they found forms valuable and said that they had none. But, what you point out is true. It was a viable response according to the original post.

So, it's Milt's fault. Bad Milt!

What are you talking about? Do I know you? How am I talking down to anyone? I haven't insulted anyone by, say......inferring they were clueless n00bs, did I?

See previous response.

You are guessing wrong, again.

Then please expand your answer. Are you then saying that you did understand the forms and found them of no value?

I used a response provided in the original post. But if something is totally useless, we can a priori assume that it is, in fact, a waste of time, yes? Is there any other way to see it at that point?

Again, see question above.

I haven't "failed" to see the value. I see it quite clearly.

Sigh.

 

[John Bishop]

Most people who know me know I'm not a big fan of forms. But I do feel they have a value in teaching basic techniques, stances, and movement. So I do teach them. But we probably train 1 hour of kata for every 9 hours of techniques, sparring, and grappling we do.

I look at it this way; how well could someone run if they have never walked?
If you look at boxers, even though they have a rule set, they fight for real within those rules. People get knocked out, bones are broken, blood is shed, and sometimes boxers die.
Boxers spend quite a bit of time shadow boxing, punching speed bags, punching focus mitts, and jumping rope. These things help develop technique , balance, conditioning, and speed. Boxers don't rely on just sparring to develop their fighting ability.

Same applies to grappling. You have to train your techniques with a compliant partner when your learning the movement. You have to practice them at different angles, different sides, different applications, all with compliant partners. You practice your break falls, shrimping, and other drills, without a partner. Just like kata and shadow boxing. Then you work with a live partner with moderate to full resistance.

Good technique is developed thru repetitive practice. Hundreds/thousands of kicks, punches, blocks, and strikes.
Power is developed from executing these techniques on the heavy bag, along with body strengthening techniques.
Timing, reactive speed, and body conditioning are developed thru free sparring with moderate to hard contact.
But before you get to that point, you do kata or line work. If you don't have good and strong techniques developed thru kata/line work and bag work, there's no way your going to develop them when a sparring partner is doing everything he can to stop and evade your techniques.

 

[Milt G.]

No, the fact that you see no value in forms is what tells me that you don't know what you are talking about. We could disagree about how valuable they are all day.



Fair enough. Then I take back what I said about your talking down to us.







I'm saying that it's not true that forms have no value. It'd be like a caveman saying a computer has no value simply because he didn't understand the value. The only thing that he is really saying is that he fails to see the value.




Natch.




Good to be impressed.




I'm sure that you haven't or you wouldn't hold your opinion.




I do not select lower ranks to protect my ego. I actually enjoy competative sparing and do so regularly with those that do best me in various tourneys etc. Win some, lose some. My point is that we use sparring to train specific things for the most part. We don't pretend that it mimicks a real fight.




Okay. You didn't tell anyone that they are full of it. You just came on a thread where everyone said that they found forms valuable and said that they had none. But, what you point out is true. It was a viable response according to the original post.

So, it's Milt's fault. Bad Milt!





See previous response.





Then please expand your answer. Are you then saying that you did understand the forms and found them of no value?



Again, see question above.




Sigh.

Hello,

I take full responsibility for allowing practitioners to answer in any way to my "survey".

MattJ is definitely a #5, in the "continuum".

MattJ...? If I may ask, what system, or method do you study? I apologize if I missed your mention of it previously. I am, some days, getting up in years.
Is it one that is traditionally without kata/forms, or have you just "dispensed" with them? Or, do you continue to practice them because "you have to"?
Honest questions...

Does your teacher feel the same way as you do about them?

Thanks, in advance, for your replies.
Milt G.

 

[MattJ]

Sorry for my late response:

No, the fact that you see no value in forms is what tells me that you don't know what you are talking about. We could disagree about how valuable they are all day.

I don't understand your logic here. I suppose I could make a similar deduction about your martial arts knowledge because you *do* find value in them, but it seems pointless since I don't really know you.

I'm saying that it's not true that forms have no value. It'd be like a caveman saying a computer has no value simply because he didn't understand the value. The only thing that he is really saying is that he fails to see the value.

Now, are you equating me with a caveman? Because that analogy is pretty far off. A caveman never saw a computer. I have seen forms.

I'm sure that you haven't or you wouldn't hold your opinion.

Again, do you know me? Have we trained together? How do you assume what I have seen or haven't seen? Frankly, this comes off as arrogant and insecure to me. However, I would be interested to hear what you think is a better or faster way to learn those elements.

I do not select lower ranks to protect my ego. I actually enjoy competative sparing and do so regularly with those that do best me in various tourneys etc. Win some, lose some. My point is that we use sparring to train specific things for the most part. We don't pretend that it mimicks a real fight.

I don't recall saying that sparring mimiced a real fight (pretty sure I said that *nothing* is like a real fight, but sparring was the closest thing). But I will assume you were not intentionally trying to use a strawman argument with me.

Okay. You didn't tell anyone that they are full of it. You just came on a thread where everyone said that they found forms valuable and said that they had none. But, what you point out is true. It was a viable response according to the original post.

So, it's Milt's fault. Bad Milt!

Milt seems OK to me. I just felt like I was being unfairly maligned.

Then please expand your answer. Are you then saying that you did understand the forms and found them of no value?

Yes. I thought that was implied, I apologize.

Sigh.

I know the feeling.

Quote by Milt:

MattJ is definitely a #5, in the "continuum".

Can someone explain what that means?

MattJ...? If I may ask, what system, or method do you study? I apologize if I missed your mention of it previously. I am, some days, getting up in years.
Is it one that is traditionally without kata/forms, or have you just "dispensed" with them? Or, do you continue to practice them because "you have to"?
Honest questions...

I studied EPAK for about 15 years, currently doing BJJ.

Does your teacher feel the same way as you do about them?

My kenpo teachers were all kata practioners. My BJJ teacher is not. But my view on kata formed long before I got into BJJ. Hope this helps.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Kata's ...its value...endless ...depends on how you were brought up to believe...

ONE must be able to define the exact meanings.....to know what KATA is...before grading it value!

IT seems only in the martial art world....kata is practice? WHY?
Because many believe it has value!

NO other sports practice so call "KATA"S in its trueist sense.

Don't get mix up training and Kata's.....Please learn the difference here!

A boxer may practice ..jab..jab..hook...upper punch a hundred times....this is NOT consider or call a Kata!

Bruce Lee does NOT believe in Kata's...just his opinion....

We do it because our Professor train that way...and he passes on what he had learn...it is a part of systems training...NOT heavy promoted...just we need to learn them for testing...

Each person will experience his own take...on its value...

Can you imagine Golfer, tennis players going doing Katas for there sports?

Aloha, gymist? ...do they have Kata?

 

[Milt G.]

Sorry for my late response:



I don't understand your logic here. I suppose I could make a similar deduction about your martial arts knowledge because you *do* find value in them, but it seems pointless since I don't really know you.




Now, are you equating me with a caveman? Because that analogy is pretty far off. A caveman never saw a computer. I have seen forms.




Again, do you know me? Have we trained together? How do you assume what I have seen or haven't seen? Frankly, this comes off as arrogant and insecure to me. However, I would be interested to hear what you think is a better or faster way to learn those elements.



I don't recall saying that sparring mimiced a real fight (pretty sure I said that *nothing* is like a real fight, but sparring was the closest thing). But I will assume you were not intentionally trying to use a strawman argument with me.



Milt seems OK to me. I just felt like I was being unfairly maligned.



Yes. I thought that was implied, I apologize.



I know the feeling.

Quote by Milt:



Can someone explain what that means?



I studied EPAK for about 15 years, currently doing BJJ.



My kenpo teachers were all kata practioners. My BJJ teacher is not. But my view on kata formed long before I got into BJJ. Hope this helps.

Hello, MattJ...

The "continuum" numbering system was related to my first post on the perceptions of kata/forms importance.
It was from 1 to 5 scale. With #1. being that kata/forms are a very important and necessary aspect and #5. being that the kata/forms are useless and unnecessary. With some positions in between.

Thus my comment that you score the subject a #5 on the continuum, based on your thoughts and answer.

As you spent 15 years in EPAK, you should have a pretty good idea what the kata are about. I, personally, do not know how you can find them to have such little importance, but all are entitled to an opinion, and I do not wish to spin this issue in any specific direction. Just wanted to give participants the opportunity to discuss the topic and follow up on any points of interest that may have come up.

One more question, if you do not mind??? Which kata did you learn and practice in EPAK, or how far did you get?

Thanks for answering my questions, and for your participation!
Milt G.

 

[Danjo]

I don't understand your logic here. I suppose I could make a similar deduction about your martial arts knowledge because you *do* find value in them, but it seems pointless since I don't really know you.

If someone says that they have found value in something, then there is value in that thing. That another fails to see the same value, does not negate the value that the first person has found.

Now, are you equating me with a caveman? Because that analogy is pretty far off. A caveman never saw a computer. I have seen forms.

Perhaps I should have said "lump of coal" instead of computer. A cave man could well have seen one of those and saw no more than a rock. Whereas someone from the 18th century sees fuel. the fact that the caveman saw no more value in the coal than in any other rock, doesn't take away from the coal's value.

Again, do you know me? Have we trained together? How do you assume what I have seen or haven't seen? Frankly, this comes off as arrogant and insecure to me. However, I would be interested to hear what you think is a better or faster way to learn those elements.

You are the one that said that you had seen nothing better. I was agreeing with you: "You've seen nothing better" or else you wouldn't hold your opinon. That could be due to one of three things: 1) There is nothing better 2) There is something better, but you've never seen it or 3) There is something better, you've seen it, but failed to realize it.

I don't recall saying that sparring mimiced a real fight (pretty sure I said that *nothing* is like a real fight, but sparring was the closest thing). But I will assume you were not intentionally trying to use a strawman argument with me.

I fully believe that you believe that sparring is the closest thing to a real fight. I disagree.

Milt seems OK to me. I just felt like I was being unfairly maligned.

Don't be fooled by Milt. He's Darth Vader.

Yes. I thought that was implied, I apologize.

Ok. You say that you understand forms, but see no value in them. I say that if you see no value, then axiomatically it means that you do NOT understand them. Stalemate.

 

[seasoned]

I will vote for necessary, because some of the greatest Karate masters in the world thought so. Every technique has a common thread that runs through it, and that thread is principles of movement, and displacement of power. Sure, you can learn individual techniques, but the principles of movement, balance, and the proper use of power are inherent within the kata practice. If done right, over a long period of time, kata will produce a well rounded fighter. Learning moves are nothing more then individual techniques, but, the principles of proper movement, along with proper breathing, and the use of power done within the framework of kata, will produce the perfect fighting machine. I would love to say that this is my opinion, but it is not only mine, but the majority of some of the greatest karate masters that ever lived. "Read it and weep".

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

there are alot of martial artists out there that feel forms are a waste of time, and believe techniques should be practiced in the air, and shadow spar/ actual spar.
I have a friend who practices his forms once a week, but kicks/shadow spars/spars every day.
To me, and based off of what i have seen growing up through the ranks, is , you gain more knowledge and techniques with forms married in as well.

 

[MattJ]

Quote by Milt:

Thus my comment that you score the subject a #5 on the continuum, based on your thoughts and answer.

Ah, Ok. I wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying. I hear 'continuum', and I think "Q" from Star Trek, LOL.

One more question, if you do not mind??? Which kata did you learn and practice in EPAK, or how far did you get?

I learned all of the forms and sets up to Long 6. GRITTING MY TEETH THE WHOLE WAY. j/k

If someone says that they have found value in something, then there is value in that thing. That another fails to see the same value, does not negate the value that the first person has found.

But it does not mean that value is intrinsic or universal.

Perhaps I should have said "lump of coal" instead of computer. A cave man could well have seen one of those and saw no more than a rock. Whereas someone from the 18th century sees fuel. the fact that the caveman saw no more value in the coal than in any other rock, doesn't take away from the coal's value.

People in the 70's kept pet rocks. You are assuming your values are everyone's - a bad assumption.

You are the one that said that you had seen nothing better. I was agreeing with you: "You've seen nothing better" or else you wouldn't hold your opinon. That could be due to one of three things: 1) There is nothing better 2) There is something better, but you've never seen it or 3) There is something better, you've seen it, but failed to realize it.

HA! ZING! That was a good one. Now instead of deflecting my question for a third time, how about answering it? If you can't, I understand, LOL.

I fully believe that you believe that sparring is the closest thing to a real fight. I disagree.

See above.

Don't be fooled by Milt. He's Darth Vader.

Milt does seem powerful, but I have to see him in the cloak to believe it. :mst:

Ok. You say that you understand forms, but see no value in them. I say that if you see no value, then axiomatically it means that you do NOT understand them. Stalemate.

Not quite - I could bring up pet rocks again, or how the church thought the earth was the center of the universe, etc.......

Your value isn't intrinsic just because you say it is. I understand perfectly that forms have no value to me.