Karate's Public Image

[exile]

Unfortunately today's karate is viewed as an afterschool program where kiddie games are played, a way to get in shape/physical fitness, a moneymaking endeavor, and non-offensive anti-violent tippy tappy mcdojo crap.

Let's all dress up like peacocks and flaunt our certificates and memberships!!! YAY!!!

I'm having a bad view of what it has become these days. I'm quite unhappy about it as you can tell.

Same with TKD and, increasingly, any other art whose practitioners buy into the same business model. The prospect of real, 21-carat violence is... disagreeable to a lot of people, and they'll avoid places that take it seriously enough to provide realistic training for you to apply in meeting it. And that goes triple when people's kids are involved...

 

[chinto]

Same with TKD and, increasingly, any other art whose practitioners buy into the same business model. The prospect of real, 21-carat violence is... disagreeable to a lot of people, and they'll avoid places that take it seriously enough to provide realistic training for you to apply in meeting it. And that goes triple when people's kids are involved...

yes much of the public provably does think that, but there are still hard corps dojo's out there that still teach it right.

 

[kidswarrior]

Karate is not sport anymore than boxing was but if efforts are not made by those that appreciate this then soon it can be seen that karate will have a point-scoring-no-it-doesn't-hurt-anyone-honest fate awaiting it.

This sums up my views, also. Karate, and perhaps much of TMA, is at a crossroads where it must become convincingly realistic as a fight stopper, or it's going to become all-out drivel. I think it's up to each of us who cares about the former to teach that in our corner of the world, and that that will be enough (it's all we can do, so it is enough).

Note that I didn't say that I believe we have to be brutal or hard core every minute of every training session. In other words, going all out all the time imho is not a good formula for longevity in MA practice--too much wear and tear on the body--and we need to keep developing dedicated practitioners who are also elders in the arts. Instead, I believe we each just have to keep learning and refining our own realistic skill set and be true to our guiding principles.

 

[exile]

Karate, and perhaps much of TMA, is at a crossroads where it must become convincingly realistic as a fight stopper, or it's going to become all-out drivel. I think it's up to each of us who cares about the former to teach that in our corner of the world, and that that will be enough (it's all we can do, so it is enough).

Note that I didn't say that I believe we have to be brutal or hard core every minute of every training session. In other words, going all out all the time imho is not a good formula for longevity in MA practice--too much wear and tear on the body--and we need to keep developing dedicated practitioners who are also elders in the arts. Instead, I believe we each just have to keep learning and refining our own realistic skill set and be true to our guiding principles.

TKD is, alas, the model that karateka have to consider in deciding which way they want their art to go. There are many of us on this board who do TKD as a serious self-defense combat system, and we find ourselves in the distinct minority within our own art. Look at all the agonized threads on TKD's public image, and the difficulty of finding training in the art which exploits its inherent combat effectiveness in full, to get a picture of what awaits karate if it gets seduced by the point-scoring sport competitive side of its persona.

I would venture to suggest that for the average practitioner, the chief benefit of the art comes at the level of the individual instructor/student relationship and the skills that are thereby transmitted. No matter how much sports/athletic glory the MA as a whole derives from its martial sport side, it will not benefit the individual karateka nearly as much as the pursuit of personal excellence in combat skills, whose payoff is the justified confidence that one can hold one's own in an unsought violent confrontation and walk away afterwards in one piece. Be guided by what happened to us when TKD, institutionally speaking, lost its connection to its street-combative roots...

 

[Tez3]

yes they were I think tougher then we are now, and well they knew that if their training failed them they and their familys were provably dead! So I know, and I have a hunch you would agree, that they were not into sport,games, or political corectness when it came to their familys safety.
For those reasons and some others I do look at how they train their kata. The old masters and men who trained back then knew it was win or die if they could not avoid the fight. They also knew that if they died their familys might be killed too. With that at stake they didnt teach or train in crap, usless stuff, or any thing that was not effective and efficent at all ranges. I think you and I know this and want that effectiveness and on top of that the history and tradition and other things that evolved for a reason, ....SURVIVAL, pure and simple.

That is what I personaly think a lot of the MMA and "reality training" types do not get. The old masters were not interested in sport, they could care less who would win in the 'octogon' or any ring with its rules and referree. They were concerned with survival, with their wives and children and themselves being alive at the end of the altercation and to hell with any one who attacked them!

OK, I jumped off my soap box, sorry about that, but, I just had to say it!

Ol I seem to spend a lot of time saying this and here I go again! You have two different concepts there, one is MMA and the other is 'reality training'. As an TMA and an MMA 'type' I have tell you people train MMA because they want to compete, it's a sport, we don't say it's anything else so there is 'nothing else to get' If we train as well for SD purposes it's a different sort of training, please don't muddle the two up and say we don't understand.
I believe boxing is thought to be more dangeous because not only the fighting involves taking blows to the head but the training does as well. I think it was recorded somewhere that a boxer can take many hundreds of repeated blows to the head through their careers through fighting and training.

 

[harleyt26]

There are many teachers and even complete styles and organizations that have never been taught anything but the most basic beginners level of applications to the kata they train.They have never had the more brutal advanced concepts shared with them,they only know basic block,punch turn block,punch,kick.That is why in my opinion it seems that the win to survive or die karate is dissapearing.There are more and more of these schools multiplying with limited knowlege,in comparison to the ones that teach the more advanced concepts.I think there are many reasons for this.One reason would be the younger ages of the students being taught and the legal implications.Another reason could be the commercial aspect,it takes longer to bring a student to the learning level needed to understand the body mechanics involved with the more advanced concepts.By body mechanics I am referring to your mechanics involved in generating and delivering the power needed as well as the mechanics it takes to position and protect youself etc.There is also the knowlege needed to know what,when and where you can apply sudden and immediate pain and death to an opponent.I think it is more financially feasable to teach a kata with the block,punch white belt bunkai and charge them to test.Its all about the money.There are still good teachers out there but they are getting more and more rare every year.
I am sure the rest of you have encountered this also.People aproach me and say I hear you teach karate,I have been looking for someplace to take my kids.They are not looking for a place that trains adults in the life and death fighting concepts.They are looking for someplace to take their kids to get them a black belt to stay competitive with the neighbors kids.Trying to keep up with the Jones so to speak.
Its a matter of supply and demand.The consumer demands subpar,somebody will supply their demands.I do not think that will make the real karate dissapear.But I do think the names will eventually have to change to seperate them.
Most of the time the schools don't even know they do the sport oriented karate.Thats the way they were taught and they were told its the real deal.Since the only other karate they have seen is at tournaments they just don't know what is involved in the real thing.Sometimes they are not allowed to train outside their own dojo in order to keep the mushrooms happy and in the dark.
Tournaments and MMA are the only venue available to the public to view karate.There is no venue that can effectively demonstrate the real death dealing applications taught by authentic karate.Any rules whatsoever do not apply.Eyegouges,groin strikes,taint kicks,throat attacks,back breaks,neck breaks,knee kicks,fish hooks,nostril rips,ear tears,hair pulling etc.etc.etc.are part of authentic karate.How can you teach those to children?Why would you teach those to tournament competitors?
Tom Hodges

 

[kidswarrior]

There are many teachers and even complete styles and organizations that have never been taught anything but the most basic beginners level of applications to the kata they train.

True. Been there, seen that.

One reason would be the younger ages of the students being taught and the legal implications.

This is a conundrum for me in starting anyone, say, under the age of 14/15, who will then only grow into the truly ugly applications in mid-later teens, when they are a little more able to handle the responsibility and understand the implications of their actions.

People aproach me and say I hear you teach karate,I have been looking for someplace to take my kids.They are not looking for a place that trains adults in the life and death fighting concepts.They are looking for someplace to take their kids to get them a black belt to stay competitive with the neighbors kids.Trying to keep up with the Jones so to speak.
Its a matter of supply and demand.The consumer demands subpar,somebody will supply their demands.

Well, we can't control what others do, so imho we just need to figure out what's right for us. And since there seems to be a fairly like-minded group involved in this thread, maybe it's a good start? (Yeah, I know we've had minor disagreements about sport/reality, but basically there seem to be many who want the same thing: a MA practice that really works, and not just for adults). And as we see from posts by MT stalwarts as Exile, Steel Tiger and others who practice non-karate arts, the desire goes beyond O/JMA and American MA.

Since the only other karate they have seen is at tournaments they just don't know what is involved in the real thing.Sometimes they are not allowed to train outside their own dojo in order to keep the mushrooms happy and in the dark.
Tournaments and MMA are the only venue available to the public to view karate.There is no venue that can effectively demonstrate the real death dealing applications taught by authentic karate.Any rules whatsoever do not apply.Eyegouges,groin strikes,taint kicks,throat attacks,back breaks,neck breaks,knee kicks,fish hooks,nostril rips,ear tears,hair pulling etc.etc.etc.are part of authentic karate.How can you teach those to children?

There is one other venue where the karate/MA taught to youngsters is tested: the schoolyard/walk-home fight or bullying. This is the true test that the kids I interact with have been put through, and why TMA leaves a bad taste in the mouths of so many youngsters. Because frankly, too may MA trained youth are not able to fight off the street fighter/punk. Word of these losses gets around--that kids who really need the self-defense applications come up short--because they weren't really taught in such a way that their skills would work against a determined street-experienced hoodlum. How have I handled this problem? By ignoring the calls to teach younger kids. I just don't have an answer (yet). But Steel Tiger's earlier comment that Mas Oyama would probably do the same reminds me this problem may be a real juggernaut.

 

[harleyt26]

As I read kidswarrior's response I realised I came across as anti sport karate.I do not have anything against karate being done as a sport,in fact it is a good thing in my opinion.I enjoy watching the competitions and attend tournaments when I can,to spectate not compete.My issue with it is I think it should have its own name.
Now about teaching kids,that is fine but that is self defence.I still say they cannot be taught the killing techniques that traditional karate was developed for.Those techniques are not for a controlled self defence situation,they were for efficient killing in a combat situation.
Teaching a kid self defence techniques are great and that is all you can do to help,but in those situations that poor kid is usually up against a much larger bully type or a group of attackers.What can you do to help?If his peer group knows of his training his chances are even further compromised.I have no good answer for that situation.I think the parents want their children to have that "blackbelt" to intimidate the possible antagonizers.It may help and it may not.I still say for me the legal implications involved with teaching children are just to risky.
Then there are the risks involved with being accused of sexual misconduct with a child.I have seen several karate schools closed because of these accusations,they may or may not be true,but I will not risk my reputation on it.You've only got one shot with that.
Tom Hodges

 

[exile]

You have two different concepts there, one is MMA and the other is 'reality training'. As an TMA and an MMA 'type' I have tell you people train MMA because they want to compete, it's a sport, we don't say it's anything else so there is 'nothing else to get' If we train as well for SD purposes it's a different sort of training, please don't muddle the two up and say we don't understand.

Quite right, reality-based training is an attempt to simulate violent street encounters with untrained but experienced assailants—see Peyton Quinn's work for a good picture of one approach to this. Reality-based training cuts across MA style and focuses on

• the tailoring of combat applications from any such style to meet and defeat the standard attack initiation routines that street thugs most typically engage in (there is now substantial documentation of just what these routines consist of, compiled from police reports and other social service records of civil violence);
  
  
• the development of maximum power in simple, direct strike combinations (which in the TMAs turn out frequently to be right there in the kata or other formal pattern sets practiced in those TMAs respectively); and
  
  
• the channelling and control of the adrenal overdrive response that survival situations trigger in all mammals and which must be harnessed effectively so that it becomes an asset, not a liability in must-win situations.

There isn't the least bit of 'sport' involved in this sort of training...

This is a conundrum for me in starting anyone, say, under the age of 14/15, who will then only grow into the truly ugly applications in mid-later teens, when they are a little more able to handle the responsibility and understand the implications of their actions.

Yup. And it's a problem which will probably never be satisfactorily solved. Kids are subject to abusive physical intimidation at ages when they are not really ready to assess whether that raking claw hand eye strike that can easily leave their 11-year-old tormenter partially blind for the rest of his life is the right thing to do. Given my own personality and reactive tendencies, I would very likely have done something to someone like that in my preteen years horrible enough for me to still be regretting it five decades later. Does that mean that the child has no other options when caught out in the open by the Dudley Dursleys of this world? I don't believe it, but I've no good answer either...

... basically there seem to be many who want the same thing: a MA practice that really works, and not just for adults). And as we see from posts by MT stalwarts as Exile, Steel Tiger and others who practice non-karate arts, the desire goes beyond O/JMA and American MA.

The troubling history of the TMAs in America implicates all of us. A culturally rooted combat skill set is transfered to a prosperous Western context where it becomes specialized esoteric knowledge shared and guarded by a small number of serious devotees; it acquires a mystique, exploited in popular media; it becomes an 'object of desire' as millions of kids respond to Bruce Lee and all the rest of the cinematographic MA industry; someone realizes that with all this enthusiasm out there, you can make a living (and in some cases, actually get rich) from this stuff; the emphasis shifts to getting bodies in the door and keeping them there... and you wind up with marketing 'self-esteem' and 'Little Tiger' after-school programs and good wholesome values and everyone's happy... except for us. Remember, it was suburban culture and the explosion of dojos, dojangs and whatever in strip malls which was the natural home of this latest development in the dilution of the TMAs, and what were the suburbs about in the first place? Lower and middle middle class Americans escaping the dangers of the City. Owning your own home, in part, but for a lot of people's parents—and here I speak from bitter experience—it was getting out of the increasingly dangerous places that east coast American cities were turning into. All those people who fled Manhatten to Nassau County in the 1950s... they're the people who created the myth of suburban safety (through robotic conformity, on LI at least). Just try telling people who are products of that ethos—denizens of the suburbs where the TMAs are such big sellers—that their kids need to learn self-protection for self-preservation, and see what happens to your balance sheet.

There is one other venue where the karate/MA taught to youngsters is tested: the schoolyard/walk-home fight or bullying. This is the true test that the kids I interact with have been put through, and why TMA leaves a bad taste in the mouths of so many youngsters. Because frankly, too may MA trained youth are not able to fight off the street fighter/punk. Word of these losses gets around--that kids who really need the self-defense applications come up short--because they weren't really taught in such a way that their skills would work against a determined street-experienced hoodlum. How have I handled this problem? By ignoring the calls to teach younger kids. I just don't have an answer (yet). But Steel Tiger's earlier comment that Mas Oyama would probably do the same reminds me this problem may be a real juggernaut.

This is what I'm talking about... it happens, and yet people don't really want their children to learn how to blind or maim their aggressive age-mates. When I was a kid, in 10th grade, maybe, a really nasty kid my own age was giving me a very hard time in the gym locker, and cornered me in one of the tile line showers. I kicked him in the abdomen so hard he fell backward and hit his head, hard, on a set of shower fixtures. He fell down and didn't get up, and I got out of there. I saw him again in school the next day, and he avoided me after that. I was relieved, because I didn't want to get in trouble. But I have to confess, I was half-hoping he would start something, because I had had a taste of the power that comes from being able to do something to your persecutor, and I wanted to do it again, in a weird way. I don't think that's a healthy thing for a kid to feel, but that's where my moral development was at that age. Teaching children lethal techs—and I had reacted instinctively, I had had no training and knew nothing about the use of strikes to weak places—is almost certainly a bad idea, yet, as KW points out, it is often what they need to know to protect themselves. So what to do?

As I read kidswarrior's response I realised I came across as anti sport karate.I do not have anything against karate being done as a sport,in fact it is a good thing in my opinion.I enjoy watching the competitions and attend tournaments when I can,to spectate not compete.My issue with it is I think it should have its own name.

I agree, Tom. And I don't think you came across as anti-anything. A lot of people feel the same way: the sport aspect and the combat aspect are simply going to come to a parting of the ways in the near future, because they are no longer even remotely about the same things.

Now about teaching kids,that is fine but that is self defence.I still say they cannot be taught the killing techniques that traditional karate was developed for.Those techniques are not for a controlled self defence situation,they were for efficient killing in a combat situation.
Tom Hodges

Again, I agree with you (and with KW). It's a dilemma, and the thing about a genuine dilemma is that there's no particularly good solution...

 

[Steel Tiger]

Again, I agree with you (and with KW). It's a dilemma, and the thing about a genuine dilemma is that there's no particularly good solution...

This is the great dilemma facing all modern martial artists. The vast majority of us are perfectly normal, law-abiding citizens and yet here we are studying skills designed to maim and kill. We need to find a way, in our small community and ourselves, to reconcile these two seemingly irreconcilable things. How do you transmit the entirety of an MA which is full of methods on how to kill?

For the youngest children it is just a game but it is also a chance to instil some social responsibility as we tell them they should not seek to harm others. The message changes as students get older. Teenage students have a better understanding of what they are doing and it becomes necessary to tell them they should not harm others except to protect themselves. Then, with adult students, there is an assumption that they have a concept of social responsibility so it is alright to pass on the full knowledge of the techniques as we believe they know how far they can go to defend themselves.

It is at the younger end that the arts are losing their fiercesome image (if they ever really had one). Kids are going into MA day care and then progressing through their arts with the same attitudes, perpetuating and enhancing a degradation of the perception of the martial arts.

 

[chinto]

This is the great dilemma facing all modern martial artists. The vast majority of us are perfectly normal, law-abiding citizens and yet here we are studying skills designed to maim and kill. We need to find a way, in our small community and ourselves, to reconcile these two seemingly irreconcilable things. How do you transmit the entirety of an MA which is full of methods on how to kill?

For the youngest children it is just a game but it is also a chance to instil some social responsibility as we tell them they should not seek to harm others. The message changes as students get older. Teenage students have a better understanding of what they are doing and it becomes necessary to tell them they should not harm others except to protect themselves. Then, with adult students, there is an assumption that they have a concept of social responsibility so it is alright to pass on the full knowledge of the techniques as we believe they know how far they can go to defend themselves.

It is at the younger end that the arts are losing their fiercesome image (if they ever really had one). Kids are going into MA day care and then progressing through their arts with the same attitudes, perpetuating and enhancing a degradation of the perception of the martial arts.

you are right, and there is not a lot you can do about it.. of course seeing some 6 year old with a black belt is a bad joke but it happens... not in the style i am in , but the local tkd school had an arttical in the local paper saying they gave 2 kids, one 7 and one 8years old a shodan rank... ridiculous to me.. but they did it.

 

[Hand Sword]

Well,

I would first ask is it really a misconception that the doctor has about Karate? It's kind of a double edged sword. To those who are serious about their training, the answer would be an overwhelming Yes! (almost feeling slighted about the response he gave) However, I think all of us need to come to the realization that Karate has become what he and most of the public seems to think--a joke, or more appropriately something for kids to do, or a workout, etc... It has earned soccer mom status in the view of most. The majority of the way it's taught, marketed, etc.. is what it is--something less thasn that "brutal" boxing stuff or even worse, that "human cock fighting" mma stuff.

 

[SageGhost83]

I think all of us need to come to the realization that Karate has become what he and most of the public seems to think--a joke, or more appropriately something for kids to do, or a workout, etc... It has earned soccer mom status in the view of most.

It is very interesting that you say that. My Shotokan sensei told us something to that effect when I first started in the arts. He is a very stern, hardcore, old-school type of person, you know - your typical old man from the far east who never says too much but is on you like white on rice if you screw up. He said that Karate practiced in the west in general and the US in particular, is so watered down in modern times that it doesn't even deserve to be called karate. Then he launched into one of those long stories about how serious and brutal the training was when he was a young man back in his home country and in the 60' and 70's in the west. He told us that now you have "karate moms" who gather in schools to gossip with each other while their children do something that looked like it was trying to be karate. Then he made me laugh when he said that modern karate should be called "gimp-ryu". He is my favorite sensei and I miss training with him dearly - what I wouldn't give just to spend another day with him. He punished us with his brand of old-school training, but he made us extremely proficient - we were putting brown and black belts to shame at tournamets even though most of us were only yellow and orange belts. Ah, how I miss that training. Since that time, I have had to move on to WTF TKD to continue to train live with another person. It is fun but, well, I'll just say that the average commercial TKD/Karate school leaves a lot to be desired in terms of actual true-to-the-art's-original-intention type of training and I'll leave it at that...

 

[chinto]

I think it does depend on the dojo in the end.. some are kinda a joke and teach only sport applications and things like that. they become basically day care.. then there are dojo's that teach traditionally and are not really into sport training and teach what the art is really designed to do and how to apply that training for that use.

 

[Hand Sword]

God bless you and those that do that! Sadly, you are all so few and far between that there isn't a dent to the overall image of today.

 

[Fiendlover]

well karate's main objective is self defense but we also teach offensive techniques but boxing is all about offense with few defensive techniques. karate also teaches more than just knocking people out. it teaches discipline, honor, brotherhood, etc. whereas boxing does not. i dont think the doctor has a wrong vision about karate but i think he just wants to keep it more civil if you will. not that karate is civil all the time........

 

[fuyugoshi]

well karate's main objective is self defense but we also teach offensive techniques but boxing is all about offense with few defensive techniques. karate also teaches more than just knocking people out. it teaches discipline, honor, brotherhood, etc. whereas boxing does not. i dont think the doctor has a wrong vision about karate but i think he just wants to keep it more civil if you will. not that karate is civil all the time........

If the local school offered a boxing course and a karate course for my kids (if I had kids, of course), I wouldn't doubt, I would have them take boxing. Amateur boxing is not as bad as you say, and the seriousness of boxing competition creates an attitude that I like. The karate classes would probably be some acrobatic XMA, some cheerleading baton techniques disguised as kobudo, or some poorly executed physical education drills that resembles poorly executed kihon.

On the other hand, as you described karate and boxing, boxing is more advanced self defense system than karate.

 

[Sukerkin]

Whilst I can appreciate that emotions can run high in any discussion, do you really believe the description you just gave of Karate, fuyugoshi?

I know that things change over time but in the days when I could train for empty-hand I always found the the Karate chaps to be more than challenging enough opponents.

Perhaps you were speaking of people presenting sports aerobics as "Karate" for marketing purposes rather than the rather more seriously miened karatekas of my aquaintence?

 

[fuyugoshi]

Whilst I can appreciate that emotions can run high in any discussion, do you really believe the description you just gave of Karate, fuyugoshi?

I know that things change over time but in the days when I could train for empty-hand I always found the the Karate chaps to be more than challenging enough opponents.

Perhaps you were speaking of people presenting sports aerobics as "Karate" for marketing purposes rather than the rather more seriously miened karatekas of my aquaintence?

You are right, I overreacted a bit and I didn't explained myself. I think that the term "karate" nowadays refers to too many things. Eight years ago, I was very surprised when I moved to the USA to see a dojo at almost every mall. I was also surprised to see so many tournaments, like "the battle of Atlanta", "World championship", etc... That was not all, I saw so many world champions... but I didn't see not one good martial artist. At tournaments, this is what I saw:

1. Most kata were created by their performers, usually teenagers
2. I saw what they call "musical kata", which in my opinion is just dancing.
3. Some kids were swinging around what they called "bo", but actually were batons that they handled exactly as cheerleaders (or batonists, I don't know the word) do.
4. In the kata traditional divisions, I saw people performing modified versions of traditional kata, and the judges didn't disqualify them. I even saw one guy who put together parts of six goju ryu kata and performed it as traditional kata... and he won!!!!
5. In kata traditional division, some Okinawan kata were performed in theatrical ways: for instance, instead of the fluidity of mushimi in some hand movements, these guys did somewhat straight hand movements with lots of arm shaking, and their breathing was as if they were having a stroke!!!!
6. The way they fight is also very primitive, but I understand that is because of the rules. Change the rules, and change the fight!

At one dojo I saw kids learning a bastardized version of goju ryu, a version that, for example, added yodan yoko geri or yodan mawashi geri to parts of the kata where previously there was no kick at all. One grand master added left kicks to sanseru because he thought the students should practice both legs, so they almost double the time needed to perform that kata... And the technique was so poor!!!! Champions that didn't have hikite, no kime... I can make a huge list of things that surprised me. On the other hand, I saw a karate/kickboxing dojo (http://www.mikido.com) and a boxing gym here in Newport News, (Hoopers Academy of Self Protection) that are different, I think because of the type of tournament they compete. They have very good fighters in kickboxing and boxing, they train boxing style, they have spirit, mystic, commitment and they can take a hit (by the way, they also teach taekwondo at Hoopers, but it is not that good).

That is why I would send my kids to boxing classes over karate, at least as long as I live in the USA. To make me change my mind, I would have to investigate the karate instructor and his organization. There are some organizations that are reliable (to me, at least): some goju ryu like IOGKF, Jundokan international, Jundokan Okinawa, Meibukan, etc; there are some shorin ryu (kobayashi, matsubayashi, etc). From mainland Japan also there are some good organizations and some good instructors in shito ryu, wado ryu, some shotokan instructors, etc. Also, some recent karate offsprings like kyokushin, enshin, daidojuku, etc. Definitely, there are lots of people who deserve all the respect, but the mainstream of karate is not good at all, and the country is so big, that good martial artist are almost isolated (in Okinawa the old masters lived in an area smaller than NY city).

The topic of this thread is the public image of karate: well, for the public, the image is that of the dojo at the mall, or tournaments like the battle of atlanta or one of those world tournaments (where there are no foreign competitors)

I started my training in 1984, and we did hit each other (it was a university dojo, so everybody was young and eager), so I understand when you talk about your training partners in the past. I also miss mine. Now I work at a university and we can not sparr because the university doesn't want legal problems if somebody is hurt.

 

[exile]

At tournaments, this is what I saw:

1. Most kata were created by their performers, usually teenagers
2. I saw what they call "musical kata", which in my opinion is just dancing.
3. Some kids were swinging around what they called "bo", but actually were batons that they handled exactly as cheerleaders (or batonists, I don't know the word) do.
4. In the kata traditional divisions, I saw people performing modified versions of traditional kata, and the judges didn't disqualify them. I even saw one guy who put together parts of six goju ryu kata and performed it as traditional kata... and he won!!!!
5. In kata traditional division, some Okinawan kata were performed in theatrical ways: for instance, instead of the fluidity of mushimi in some hand movements, these guys did somewhat straight hand movements with lots of arm shaking, and their breathing was as if they were having a stroke!!!!
6. The way they fight is also very primitive, but I understand that is because of the rules. Change the rules, and change the fight!

At one dojo I saw kids learning a bastardized version of goju ryu, a version that, for example, added yodan yoko geri or yodan mawashi geri to parts of the kata where previously there was no kick at all. One grand master added left kicks to sanseru because he thought the students should practice both legs, so they almost double the time needed to perform that kata... And the technique was so poor!!!! Champions that didn't have hikite, no kime... I can make a huge list of things that surprised me.

There's a very clear lesson from this, which shouldn't come as news to anyone who's followed the history of the MAs: as the sports/spectacle side is pumped up, the martial content and 'public image' goes down. This happened to judo, it happened to taekwondo, it's happened to the CMAs as government sponsored 'wushu' has superseded the family-based and 'hard' systems in the public mind, and it's been happening to karate as the sport side has come to prominence (look at that appalling 'XMA' special The Discovery Channel ran on Matthew Mullins, Mike Chat and the rest of 'em a couple of years ago). The only thing that could do karate's public image more harm at this point would be to lobby successfully to become an Olympic sport. Instant death-knell.

Yes, it's true that boxing is also a sport; but that's why I said 'sport/spectable' earlier. In boxing, violence, not acrobatics, is the draw. Sure, skill is crucial, but the skill people are looking for is in the delivery of hard punches. In TKD and, increasingly, sport karate, acrobatics and 'flash' are the components of the spectacle that draws viewers. Increasingly artificial techniques, and fighting ranges that have no relation to an actual violent street encounter, are imposed and rewarded by the rule system; in contrast, boxing rules keep the fight at distance ranges which are much more like what you see if you're unfortunate enough to be involved in a punch-up with some drunken yob or bullying lowlife. And so boxers have to train for fighting at those ranges, which results in a more realistic overall approach to combat than any of the TMAs—whether Chinese, Korean or Japanese—whose sport/spectacle side rewards gymnastic and athletic difficulty. The high, complex kicks that are the stuff of current sparring, and the wushu-like distortions of kata and hyungs that you're complaining about are all the result of the marketing of TMAs as circus theatre. However corrupt boxing is (and has been for a long time), there's a fundamental honesty about its basic premise: in a fight, two people are striking each other hard at very short range till one goes down. To the extent that MMA competitions have maintained that premise, they've benefitted in the 'image' department for exactly the same reasons.

But as Sukerkin has pointed out, there are plenty of places where you can train karate on the same assumptions—that you're going to use it to defend yourself from a violent attack, typically initiated at very close range, and that you're going to end the attack by delivering very hard strikes to vulnerable critical places on the attacker's body, particularly above the neck. In a sense, what you're saying is that you're going to have more trouble finding places which train karate like that than you will in finding boxing schools which train you for close-in striking effectiveness, and you're probably right about that... more's the pity.