karate/ taekwondo differences

[Touch Of Death]

I think karate and TKD use the same range.

Laughs

 

[exile]

Laughs

Because?

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Because?

??

 

[exile]

??

Well, I was curious about why ToD was laughing in response to your observation that Karate and TKD use the same fighting range. As sport activities, they use the same fighting range—the usual 6-8 foot separation, something a lot of karateka who write about realistic bunkai talk about when they note that kata applications are aimed at very close-range combat, and evident from just about any sparring event in a karate tournament you choose to watch. And as applied self-defense activities, their use of largely overlapping, if not outright identical, strategic and tactical ideas, means that they're oriented to the same 12-18" fighting range, the range at which punches to the head are thrown by the attacker. So I couldn't see what Sean found in your post to laugh about... maybe I was missing something though...

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Well, I was curious about why ToD was laughing in response to your observation that Karate and TKD use the same fighting range. As sport activities, they use the same fighting range—the usual 6-8 foot separation, something a lot of karateka who write about realistic bunkai talk about when they note that kata applications are aimed at very close-range combat, and evident from just about any sparring event in a karate tournament you choose to watch. And as applied self-defense activities, their use of largely overlapping, if not outright identical, strategic and tactical ideas, means that they're oriented to the same 12-18" fighting range, the range at which punches to the head are thrown by the attacker. So I couldn't see what Sean found in your post to laugh about... maybe I was missing something though...

Sorry Exile, that was what my question marks were for! To show I didnt know either!

 

[exile]

Sorry Exile, that was what my question marks were for! To show I didnt know either!

Ah, OK... I was being cryptic, to match ToD's cryptic post, and I was concerned that maybe I had miscommunicated just which post I was querying. Electronic communication is a wonderful thing, but sometimes a little obscure... anyway, glad we were on the same page there!

 

[Touch Of Death]

You will notice the long range kicks in TKD. I wasn't talking about tournaments.
sean

 

[exile]

You will notice the long range kicks in TKD. I wasn't talking about tournaments.
sean

I will notice them, I practice them, but I would never use them for SD, where the combat range is in the range of a foot to a foot and half or so. For that I train deflections in connection with moves into the attacker, using either an opening or closing approach; immobilization and control of the attacking limb, and strikes to the face, temples and neck with knifehand strikes to the throat, palm-heel or to jaw and face, and hammerfist and elbow strikes anywhere I can get in. I train hikite-type retraction to anchor the attacker, knee strikes to the abdomen, arm pins to bring down his upper body and vertical elbow strikes down on the back of his neck and spine. And this is how my instructor, a fifth dan, KKW-certified, teaches us; these tech come straight down our Song Moo Kwan lineage.

Long range kicks are for long range. A street attack usually begins close up, where TKD possesses all of the tools I've mentioned, and more, and linking moves to keep the attack going, all encoded in its hyungs and recoverable through bunkai. Karate also has exactly the same kicks, btw; check out e.g., Joachim Grupp's Kumite: Shotokan Karate (2004, Oxford: Meyer & Meyer Sport) and you'll see 'em there in all their glory... for kumite, just as they're there for competition use in TKD. If you have the chance to use them opportunistically as part of a preemptive strike and know what you're doing, all the better... but I'm certainly not counting on them for a real street attack.

The point is, range isn't something that the art lets you decide on; it's determined by the situation and the nature of the attack, and the fighting system better provide tools to let you operate in those ranges (and keep the fight in the range that the system is strongest in). Any MA that's stood the test of time is going to operate over the same relevant set of ranges that arise in a street attack. I'd say that TKD and karate use pretty much the same set of tools over the same fighting ranges, as you'd pretty much expect, given the historical relationship between the two, and I'm pretty sure that this is what FieldDiscipline was getting at in saying that the fighting ranges of the two are pretty much the same.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

I'm pretty sure that this is what FieldDiscipline was getting at in saying that the fighting ranges of the two are pretty much the same.

You'd be correct Exile. That was exactly the point I was making.

The point is, range isn't something that the art lets you decide on; it's determined by the situation and the nature of the attack

This is a fundamental point. Depending on how aware you are, how in control of the situation you are and even then, the enemy will often dictate the range in which you fight. Its up to you to be prepared for all of them. If you look at some of Iain Abernethy's work (I know you have Exile) he very clearly shows how karate works in all ranges. But I digress...

 

[Touch Of Death]

I will notice them, I practice them, but I would never use them for SD, where the combat range is in the range of a foot to a foot and half or so. For that I train deflections in connection with moves into the attacker, using either an opening or closing approach; immobilization and control of the attacking limb, and strikes to the face, temples and neck with knifehand strikes to the throat, palm-heel or to jaw and face, and hammerfist and elbow strikes anywhere I can get in. I train hikite-type retraction to anchor the attacker, knee strikes to the abdomen, arm pins to bring down his upper body and vertical elbow strikes down on the back of his neck and spine. And this is how my instructor, a fifth dan, KKW-certified, teaches us; these tech come straight down our Song Moo Kwan lineage.

Long range kicks are for long range. A street attack usually begins close up, where TKD possesses all of the tools I've mentioned, and more, and linking moves to keep the attack going, all encoded in its hyungs and recoverable through bunkai. Karate also has exactly the same kicks, btw; check out e.g., Joachim Grupp's Kumite: Shotokan Karate (2004, Oxford: Meyer & Meyer Sport) and you'll see 'em there in all their glory... for kumite, just as they're there for competition use in TKD. If you have the chance to use them opportunistically as part of a preemptive strike and know what you're doing, all the better... but I'm certainly not counting on them for a real street attack.

The point is, range isn't something that the art lets you decide on; it's determined by the situation and the nature of the attack, and the fighting system better provide tools to let you operate in those ranges (and keep the fight in the range that the system is strongest in). Any MA that's stood the test of time is going to operate over the same relevant set of ranges that arise in a street attack. I'd say that TKD and karate use pretty much the same set of tools over the same fighting ranges, as you'd pretty much expect, given the historical relationship between the two, and I'm pretty sure that this is what FieldDiscipline was getting at in saying that the fighting ranges of the two are pretty much the same.

But ideally, you dictate the situation and any TKD class I ever took prefers you end the fight before it becomes a wrestling match with well placed long range kicks. Logic, of course, dictates that TKDers train the other ranges and they do; however, Karate starts a little closer.
Sean

 

[Tez3]

Ok time for you to laugh at me! This thought came about Exile by your mention of hedgehogs on another thread! Brilliant creatures, I have them in my garden eating slugs.

Anyway before you think I'm mad I'll confirm it, in Chinese styles they have movements, styles etc based on animal behaviour/defensive moves.Well if Karate and TKD came from Chinese roots why aren't these animal type things (for want of a better word) in them? Or are they and I 've never come across it?

 

[exile]

You'd be correct Exile. That was exactly the point I was making.

OK, I just wanted to be a bit tentative there, because I know from experience that people often don't want to have words put in their mouth.

Depending on how aware you are, how in control of the situation you are and even then, the enemy will often dictate the range in which you fight. Its up to you to be prepared for all of them. If you look at some of Iain Abernethy's work (I know you have Exile) he very clearly shows how karate works in all ranges. But I digress...

No, it's not a digression, it's the heart of the matter, I believe. The fact is that MAs are supposed to be robust fighting systems, that is, they give you tools to use even if you've made an error of judgment, strategic or tactical. A strategic error, maybe the main one, is letting the fight begin at the attacker's convenience and preferred range (which will be close, since his biggest advantage is the surprise factor, and that gets lost if he launches the attack too close. But since most of us aren't mind-readers or oracles, any MA worth its salt has to give you techs to use at closer-in ranges. It would be nice if a lightbulb flashing Now I'm gonna deck you!! were to start flashing over assailants' head a second or so before the attack, but here on Planet Earth, your best bet is serious training at defense and counters at close-in punching range. And TKD and Shotokan provide almost identical toolkits for that range, and closer ranges as well.

But ideally, you dictate the situation and any TKD class I ever took prefers you end the fight before it becomes a wrestling match with well placed long range kicks. Logic, of course, dictates that TKDers train the other ranges and they do; however, Karate starts a little closer.
Sean

I think we may be talking at cross-purposes, Sean. My point is just that TKD trains an almost identical technical toolkit to Shotokan for very close-in fighting. If the fight begins at a typical `haymaker' range, TKD training will give you a very similar set of principles (and techniques following from those principles) to apply to terminate the attack asap. Preemption, where you have the necessary data, is of course desirable—but as a lot of karateka will tell you (and defend on the basis of the writings of their greatest practitioners and theorists), a preemptive strike is perfectly ok in Karate, and you will probably use the same methods in Shotokan for that as in TKD (although a TKDist may be more comfortable with using certain leg techs than a karateka, since TKD tends to train kicking more intensively)...

 

[stoneheart]

When you're talking about ranges, it really depends on the style of karate you are talking about. I would agree that Okinawan Goju starts at a closer proximity than TKD or even Shotokan for that matter.

At the same time, I don't see much difference in range between Shotokan and TKD. Check out the old karate tournament footage with the JKA greats like [SIZE=-1]Kanazawa or Enoeda if you want to see for yourself. Those masters displayed great ability to cover ground quickly in their tournament victories.[/SIZE]

 

[Cirdan]

From what I`ve seen some Taekwondoists tend to shout part of the name of their art a lot during training.

Typical conversation:

Trainer: Are you having fun?
Class: Tae Kwon!

Trainer: What? I can`t hear you.
Class: Tae Kwon!!

Are you ready for some pushups?
Class: Tae Kwon!

etc

Why do they do this thing? Tae Kwon meaning something like "to strike with hand and foot" it actually sounds a little uuhh.. strange. Like you are talking to a giant or something. "Me smash!" :uhyeah:
Or is it a remaint from when the art was taught in the millitary? I haven`t seen anything like this in Karate yet.

 

[Tez3]

From what I`ve seen some Taekwondoists tend to shout part of the name of their art a lot during training.

Typical conversation:

Trainer: Are you having fun?
Class: Tae Kwon!

Trainer: What? I can`t hear you.
Class: Tae Kwon!!

Are you ready for some pushups?
Class: Tae Kwon!

etc

Why do they do this thing? Tae Kwon meaning something like "to strike with hand and foot" it actually sounds a little uuhh.. strange. Like you are talking to a giant or something. "Me smash!" :uhyeah:

Ah that's like people who shout the word 'kiai' instead of doing it, if you know what I mean? You wouldn't use the English word 'shout' so why use the Japanese? ot is this just me?

 

[Cirdan]

Ah that's like people who shout the word 'kiai' instead of doing it, if you know what I mean? You wouldn't use the English word 'shout' so why use the Japanese? ot is this just me?

Well a Kiai don`t have to be "Kiai". I tend to use a different sound each time, Ay!, Ieh!, Ha! etc. A friend of mine sounds almost like a dog "Boww!"

 

[Tez3]

Well a Kiai don`t have to be "Kiai". I tend to use a different sound each time, Ay!, Ieh!, Ha! etc. A friend of mine sounds almost like a dog "Boww!"

that's what i mean, make a noise not use the word itself as a kiai!

 

[exile]

Ok time for you to laugh at me! This thought came about Exile by your mention of hedgehogs on another thread! Brilliant creatures, I have them in my garden eating slugs.

Ah, so not just charming but practical too... how did we wind up not getting our allotment of them? Do they have them on the Continent?

Anyway before you think I'm mad I'll confirm it, in Chinese styles they have movements, styles etc based on animal behaviour/defensive moves.Well if Karate and TKD came from Chinese roots why aren't these animal type things (for want of a better word) in them? Or are they and I 've never come across it?

I actually don't think they're there, at least in the sense you seem to be asking about. I don't know why that is, but I'm pretty sure that the animal names that Hwang Kee gave some of his version of forms he introduced into his own MDK curriculum in the Kwan era were specifically intended to obscure the Japanese origins of those forms (origins which he later admitted to in his last book, in 1995). Animal names for forms are so specific to Chinese fighting arts that using them would have conjured up the association with the CMAs that HK wanted to establish (reminiscent maybe of the longed-for ancient KMA lineage back to the Three Kingdoms era, when China intervened heavily in the endless peninsular warfare, and the contemporary KMAs, so far as the documentation permits, were taken over almost unchanged from Han fighting systems?) There might be some specific reason for the avoidance of animal names in Okinawan/Japanese MAs (apart from direct loans from Chinese nomenclature), but that reason would probably be connected to some larger cultural pattern... you'd need an ethnographic historian to get an answer to that question, probably.

From what I`ve seen some Taekwondoists tend to shout part of the name of their art a lot during training.

Typical conversation:

Trainer: Are you having fun?
Class: Tae Kwon!

Trainer: What? I can`t hear you.
Class: Tae Kwon!!

Are you ready for some pushups?
Class: Tae Kwon!

etc

Why do they do this thing? Tae Kwon meaning something like "to strike with hand and foot" it actually sounds a little uuhh.. strange. Like you are talking to a giant or something. "Me smash!" :uhyeah:
Or is it a remaint from when the art was taught in the millitary? I haven`t seen anything like this in Karate yet.

Not so fast, Cirdan! Aren't you forgetting something... like, Osu!!! bellowed out at top volume every 4.3 seconds in a lot of dojos? There's a very funny analysis of the misuse of this expression in North American dojos by Rob Redmond on the 24fightingchickens Shotokan site, here.

Ah that's like people who shout the word 'kiai' instead of doing it, if you know what I mean? You wouldn't use the English word 'shout' so why use the Japanese? ot is this just me?

I know, this business that `Tae Kwon' (or `Tang Soo', I've heard that one also at TSD classes) or yelling kiai... I don't get it at all, except maybe that it's part of a general problem that people have in trying to recreate MA school rituals in places far distant from the origin points of those MAs... :idunno:

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Why do they do this thing? Tae Kwon meaning something like "to strike with hand and foot" it actually sounds a little uuhh.. strange. Like you are talking to a giant or something. "Me smash!" :uhyeah:
Or is it a remaint from when the art was taught in the millitary? I haven`t seen anything like this in Karate yet.

I can answer this. It dates back to Nam Tae Hi (and presumably others) at the time when TKD went by different names. He used to have his Oh Do Kwan classes shout it when double punching in sitting stance and I believe as a kind of salute. Kind of to reinforce the name and identity I guess.

Never heard it used to quite the extreme you've described though, Cirdan.

 

[terryl965]

From what I`ve seen some Taekwondoists tend to shout part of the name of their art a lot during training.

Typical conversation:

Trainer: Are you having fun?
Class: Tae Kwon!

Trainer: What? I can`t hear you.
Class: Tae Kwon!!

Are you ready for some pushups?
Class: Tae Kwon!

etc

Why do they do this thing? Tae Kwon meaning something like "to strike with hand and foot" it actually sounds a little uuhh.. strange. Like you are talking to a giant or something. "Me smash!" :uhyeah:
Or is it a remaint from when the art was taught in the millitary? I haven`t seen anything like this in Karate yet.

I was told it was a part of the art being brought over to help give instint recognition to the Art from Korea. They added this yell for these command so people would chime those words over and over. To give the impression that the Art was the most extreme art out there in those days. I really do not know how true it is but GMKim said this was as close as he could remember.