Karate shools that teach Taekwondo Forms on the side

[MSUTKD]

I have seen more “strange” interpretations of taekwondo forms at taekwondo tournaments than anything. Without people actually being trained in the nuances of the forms a lot is really missed. When this is passed down it gets more convoluted until……..sad.

ron

 

[searcher]

Then why bother with a tournament that you know going in that you're not going to be judged "fairly" based on MA skills???

That's kinda like bringing a knife to a gun fight...

That is why you see "style" or "nation" based tourneys now.

 

[miguksaram]

So why use forms/kata from other styles or systems. Just enter creative division, musical division, X-treme division, etc....if you just want to rack in trophies. There's enough divisions that you don't have to use forms/kata from other styles.

Some of them enjoy doing "traditional" which is why they enter those divisions. Plus, not all tournaments do musical, creative and extreme divisions.

 

[miguksaram]

I can top the forms thing. I had a brown belt judging my division, 4th dan & up, at one of these tourneys. These guys are frigging wacked out.

That was definitely wrong there and I would have protested that. We have had brown belts judge under belt kids divisions as a last resort to keep the tournament moving, but we would never let a brown belt judge black belts. That is just wrong.

 

[miguksaram]

That's why I never thought it was fair for a hard stylist to judge traditional style divisions that had traditional kung fu stylists in it but it happens all the time. Not only do they not know the soft styles but they are going to be biased and judge the traditional karate styles higher than the trad. kf styles. I had a TKD person judging my div one time. whats he know about kung fu???

Did you ask him if he new any kung fu? Just because they rep a certain style at a tournament doesn't mean they don't know another style. I rep my karate school, but I am more than capable to judge a Korean form, due to my past in KMA.

 

[miguksaram]

After the competition, I told this young man that it would be easy for him to essentially dial-down his poomsae and do Koryo according to the KKW standard. I told him if he got permission from his instructor, I'd be happy to teach him.

I run into just the opposite problem. Our school does the open circuit (NASKA, AKA). We have students coming from different schools to train with us on their creative, traditional and extreme forms. Since I am the "TKD" guy at the school, I am asked to help with the Korean forms. However, I show them traditional and then have to teach them how to cater to the judges in an open circuit. (Then I go and bath for an hour afterwards to wash the filth away. ha.ha.ha.)

 

[Cirdan]

TKD forms at a Karate tournament............ :eye-popping: :lfao: :wah: :moon:

And people wonder why those who train traditional don`t like to compete.

 

[miguksaram]

TKD forms at a Karate tournament............ :eye-popping: :lfao: :wah: :moon:

And people wonder why those who train traditional don`t like to compete.

Two things...one they call it an open Karate tournament, but in actuality it is an open martial arts tournament...Any system can come and play. Secondly I train traditionally and I enjoy competing. You just have to know the rules and of the game if you are going to compete in them. If you want strict traditional tournaments there are plenty of them out there if you look.

 

[IcemanSK]

Throwing in anyone to judge any event happens quite often, in my experience. When I was a newly minted 1st Dan (at 17 years old) I was thrown in to judge a weapons competition at a tournament by the tourney director. He literally grabbed the first three BB's he saw. None of the 3 of us trained with weapons! One of us protested (in Korean) to the Korean director. The director didn't care, he got his money.

 

[dancingalone]

Open tournaments are perhaps the biggest waste of time and resources in the martial arts. This coming from someone who liked them in his youth. Then I realized most of what I was seeing (and *cough* doing) had no merit whatsoever in an actual physical encounter, so I quit that scene cold turkey.

I am amused by the original post. What does the karate guy say his style is when his is introducing himself to the judges? "Shoto kwan do?"

 

[searcher]

Open tournaments are perhaps the biggest waste of time and resources in the martial arts. This coming from someone who liked them in his youth. Then I realized most of what I was seeing (and *cough* doing) had no merit whatsoever in an actual physical encounter, so I quit that scene cold turkey.

It depends on if you are the one throwing the tourney or not. A large number of the tourney promoters make a pretty healthy $$$ off of tourneys.

I am amused by the original post. What does the karate guy say his style is when his is introducing himself to the judges? "Shoto kwan do?"

Most guys/girls that compete in open tourneys don't introduce the style they train in, most are a part of an independent team that represent a company orother team sponsor.

 

[dancingalone]

It depends on if you are the one throwing the tourney or not. A large number of the tourney promoters make a pretty healthy $$$ off of tourneys.

Yes, it's a boon financially for the tournament organizer. And tournaments can be very fun if you're into them. After a while, though, it's like eating candy and drinking soda all the time... You long for something of substance. If I never see another guy lunging into his opponent, hands flailing away, it will still be too soon for me.

Olympic sparring gets a lot of flack on this board. Heck, I prefer Olympic TKD matches to the standard garbage you see in point sparring. What kills me is the tournament point fighters think what they are doing is applicable to real life self-defense.

Most guys/girls that compete in open tourneys don't introduce the style they train in, most are a part of an independent team that represent a company orother team sponsor.

Yeah, that makes sense. Of course when you practice for tournaments you tend to lose everything that made your style unique anyway. Tournament karate is its own world...

 

[MasterWright]

>>

I'm totally baffled. Why on earth would a Karate school teach TKD forms? Especially when you consider the fact that the older hyungs are either direct adaptations of, or recombinations of subsequences within, Okinawan/Japanese kata... what's the thinking here??? <<

Not so much pattern collection as trophy collection. The more divisions they enter, the more trophies they can collect.

Yes, it was only 5 dollars to enter any other events after paying the initial registration which entitled the competitor to one. There were some rings held up because they had to wait for participants to finish in another event. There were weapons, musical forms, etc. They were fun to watch, I guess because it was more freestyle.

As far as Korean forms go, I can see a sine wave adaptaion being implemented with ITF Hyung ( or not )and WTF has it's adaptations. I was taught what the strikes,kicks and moves mean and what they were meant to counter in a practical way.

Just my opinion.

 

[miguksaram]

Open tournaments are perhaps the biggest waste of time and resources in the martial arts. This coming from someone who liked them in his youth. Then I realized most of what I was seeing (and *cough* doing) had no merit whatsoever in an actual physical encounter, so I quit that scene cold turkey.

I am amused by the original post. What does the karate guy say his style is when his is introducing himself to the judges? "Shoto kwan do?"

I would disagree that open tournaments are a waste of time. Yes, they will never be what an actual physical encounter is like, but they can help you mentally deal with stress under pressured situations. Also, under the right coaching, they help you deal with what happens when you don't always win.

Oh..to answer your last question, for most tournament they don't have to mention their style anymore...they simply mention name, school & kata name.

 

[dancingalone]

I would disagree that open tournaments are a waste of time. Yes, they will never be what an actual physical encounter is like, but they can help you mentally deal with stress under pressured situations. Also, under the right coaching, they help you deal with what happens when you don't always win.

I understand it's just a matter of opinion. You find value - I do not. I'll explain why. I find open tournaments inevitable shallow due to their lowest common denominator orientation. Having to perform my kata under the watchful eyes of my sensei who I have to travel to see is real stress. Taking shime from him is real stress. Running through one of my forms while some 'American karate' or Tang Soo Do guy is judging it is NOT stressful. How can it be? I know it's likely that their evaluation metrics will be totally unlike what I train for. I might as well as ask my pastor what he thinks about my thesis on cloud computing. It would have that same level of relevance.

As for 'winning'... I'm not sure what that word means in the context of my martial arts. I train for survival from physical attacks, not to receive trophies or to raise my self esteem or even to learn anti-bullying tactics as many children in MA do these days. I don't need to infuse my MA with fortune cookie philosophy or character building morality. I have other outlets for that.

 

[searcher]

Oh..to answer your last question, for most tournament they don't have to mention their style anymore...they simply mention name, school & kata name.

Most don't even do that. They simply say who they are and who they represent. Then they do their form. IMO it borders on rude the way most do it. "Sport Karate" has turned into its own beast, not like how it was in the early years. No blood and guts anymore. Not to mention no groin kicking.

 

[jks9199]

Most don't even do that. They simply say who they are and who they represent. Then they do their form. IMO it borders on rude the way most do it. "Sport Karate" has turned into its own beast, not like how it was in the early years. No blood and guts anymore. Not to mention no groin kicking.

I agree... It's not "martial" or "tough" to run out, SCREAM your kata and name (if that), and almost immediately launch into it. Years back, when I did a bit of open tournament stuff, you walked up, stood at attention, bowed, announced yourself, your school/style, instructors, and your form, and asked permission to begin... And in sparring, you took your lumps and kept going.

(Damn... some graying fogey snuck in here to my keyboard!)

 

[JadeDragon3]

Yeah, I would go up and introduce myself, my school name, my form, and asked permission to begin. I always thought that part was kinda fun. I always got a kick out of it when I judged. It was funny to see some of the competitors scream all this info at you.

 

[searcher]

(Damn... some graying fogey snuck in here to my keyboard!)

I know what you mean. I started feeling old when I was told I could enter the "old man's" division. Of course, I had to go to the open division as well. The youngsters needed to have an "old fart" kick them around a bit.

 

[miguksaram]

Most don't even do that. They simply say who they are and who they represent. Then they do their form. IMO it borders on rude the way most do it. "Sport Karate" has turned into its own beast, not like how it was in the early years. No blood and guts anymore. Not to mention no groin kicking.

I agree that while it has evolved in some areas it has de-evolved in others. Last night I was talking with my Sensei and he was speaking of the tournaments back in the 70's and how they would be inspect all the competitors and do exercises prior to the match.

I still believe and I instill in our students that if they are going to run a traditional form then they should always introduce themselves, their school, style and the name of their form. For other divsions such as creative or extreme I tell them to let them know their name and who they represent, since style is not a factor in these divisions.