Karate is kata, kata is karate

[pdg]

In this case, I'd consider the scissor block application you provided a Tier 2 application. Then again, it's kind of hard to tell because it's never been explained beyond the basic mechanics.

This is a motion I learned in a different set of forms (Palgwes) where we describe it there as two blocks. In either case, maybe the problem isn't that a Tier 1 application doesn't exist, but the problem is that the Tier 1 application is woefully inefficient compared to other simpler options.

See, I'd consider that trap/break motion as the simplest application and therefore tier 1.

That was from memory though - I can check the actual pattern description where that block features at some point and see what it actually says?

It's possible that it states two blocks, but I can't remember off the top of my head...



Are these sort of basic simple applications not described when you're initially taught the form?

 

[skribs]

See, I'd consider that trap/break motion as the simplest application and therefore tier 1.

That was from memory though - I can check the actual pattern description where that block features at some point and see what it actually says?

It's possible that it states two blocks, but I can't remember off the top of my head...



Are these sort of basic simple applications not described when you're initially taught the form?

We're told to do a scissor block and shown what the move looks like. Then we're told how to properly chamber it, where are hands should be (i.e. the inside block too short or too long) and other details are corrected.

There is 0 application training that is derived from the forms. This has been my experience at multiple schools. This has been my experience when I look up instructional videos on the forms provided by various masters (not just one). This has been my experience when watching the forms be critiqued. "Scissor block" is the most description we get of the technique.

This isn't to say we don't learn application and we don't drill techniques on a partner. We do. They just don't come from the forms. The training is very compartmentalized in that way.

It's as if the forms are Language Arts, the sparring is Science, and our application drills are Math. We'll learn a form that has a scissor block, learn an application drill that features a knife-hand block and a sweep (among other things), and then spar with kicks. My understanding is that most KKW schools (or at least the stereotypical KKW school) does this or even less - many don't even have the application training at all.

I put all of this in there so it's understood that parroting the form isn't the only training we do. But it is the only form-related training we do. I do learn a lot at my dojang, it's just hard to connect the forms to what we actually use.

 

[Flying Crane]

Where the hell is the OP? Does he think can just drop a grenade here and then walk away??

@Bill Mattocks

 

[skribs]

Where the hell is the OP? Does he think can just drop a grenade here and then walk away??

@Bill Mattocks

I asked him to drop the grenade. He merely pulled the pin.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Where the hell is the OP? Does he think can just drop a grenade here and then walk away??

@Bill Mattocks

He did say in another thread he probably wouldn’t stay on the thread after his OP.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I respect people for whom kata is the primary purpose of karate training. Karate can be different things to different people, and that is absolutely one legitimate approach to the practice. And it sounds like the original poster finds this approach rewarding and of great value in his life. More power to him, and he should never feel the need to apologize for that.

Where I disagree is the implication that this is the only true meaning of karate, or that people who approach karate differently are missing the point. I've trained at one dojo which at the end of the day was all about kata in the sort of way you describe, and ultimately it wasn't the approach to karate I personally found most fulfilling.

The idea that all of karate is contained within its kata is one approach to karate, but certainly not true of all forms of karate. Sport karate and knockdown karate spring to mind first and foremost, where kumite is the predominant focus of the kihon-kata-kumite trinity. Kata is a part of the training, but not the overarching umbrella that everything else is based off of, and not considered an encyclopedia of everything that's part of the style. This is a different approach to karate. Not right or wrong, just different. Personally, I prefer the kumite-centric approach over the kata-centric approach; but I also do not believe that my way is the only way. There's room for both Cobra Kai and Miyagi-Do in the same town, right?

Take running. Some people sprint, some people run marathons, some people run on trails, some people run on tracks. There's no one "true" approach to the hobby/passion of running. It can be different things for different people while still falling under the umbrella of "running."

I did not say anything about all karate. I did mention specifically karatedo, which I believe is a specific way of pointing out the 'way' of karate, as opposed to the jutsu of karate. Both are respected, both are valuable. I tend to prefer the do over the jutsu.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I am a big advocate of the benefit of forms training. However, that assumes, among other things, that the forms are well designed and are properly understood to gain the fighting applications from them.

I believe that not all forms are well designed, and not everyone understands them properly to get martial benefit from them. In some cases, forms practice is not martially beneficial. They may still have other benefits such as memorization, cardio conditioning, etc.

It is possible that in your school or in your particular lineage, forms training is not martially beneficial. Those answers may simply not be found in your forms, in your school.

As you point out, it may otherwise have little effect on your practice and your ability to develop your skills. The forms may simply be unnecessary, perhaps even a waste of time.

I believe you are correct. I have met and trained with people who do kata and cannot explain what some of the moves in them are intended to do, nor can they demonstrate them if they can explain them. This is not, I believe, their fault. Rather, they have been cheated. And there isn't one culprit here. Drift happens. Technique is not always correctly transmitted. Karate becomes what some call 'surface karate'. There is some application, but no deep inspection of the techniques being employed.

I believe that I am quite fortunate to train where I do. I lucked into it; I could have ended up somewhere else, and I honestly do not believe I would have been exposed to the level of training I am so fortunate to have found.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

He did say in another thread he probably wouldn’t stay on the thread after his OP.

I'm doing what I can. But I never intended to try to persuade anyone that I have the truth or anything like it. Just my opinion, which I've stated.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That all makes great sense, Bill. Here's my question: cannot all of that be true of a Karate system that doesn't use kata? Can't they have exactly the same range of technique, breathing, balance, exploration, and learning? Can't they have the same lifestyle approach to the art?

I don't know, as it is outside of my experience. That is, I've never experienced training that had a holistic (to misuse the term slightly) approach to karate and did not practice kata.

I find it difficult to conceptualize, that's for sure. I am imagining a simple kata, which over time and study reveals deeper meaning and a myriad of techniques. Then, a set of techniques taught that implement all of the things that one simple kata offers, without missing any. As I am still finding deeper meaning in even the most basic of our kata, and don't expect the well to run dry any time soon (or ever), I'm not sure how those could all be extracted and codified, let alone taught in a cogent manner.

Let's say a given kata can yield 100 applications. So let's say someone has juiced that particular orange, and distilled it down to 100 sets of instructions and application. Now they have to teach it, and at the appropriate time and level of understanding, and that's just assuming that 100 was all that was there to be found. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

I've come to like kata over the last few years (never had much opinion on it in the past), so I'm not suggesting it is a bad thing. I think it works quite well for a lot of people. I just don't think it defines what is and is not Karate. The result, to me, is what defines that.

I don't know what the result is. I don't know a result anymore. Karate is, there is no end that I can see or am aware of, short of the grave. I'm not trying to woo-woo or mystical here. I just don't think of karate as a thing anymore; it's a way, a path, a method of living and of seeing the world, and such a tiny part of it is about hitting people (although I do enjoy that too).

Now, some of that depends on how we define terms, and that might be all the difference you and I have on this issue. I'll take it away from Karate to avoid any personal ties to an approach. If someone told me they taught Judo with wrestling takedowns that aren't allowed in the sport (and, thus, aren't part of the formal Judo curriculum), I'd still consider it all Judo. If someone taught Tae Kwon Do using the original Shotokan kata, either of the more recent TKD kata sets, or no kata at all, I'd still consider it TKD. But if we defined "Judo" as "the formal set of techniques from the Kodokan, plus their applications and defenses", then the first person is teaching Judo and some other stuff. If we defined TKD as "the Korean art derived largely from Karate and taught using kata", then when the kata are removed it's no longer TKD. So it may be just semantics.

I can accept that. I'll have to return again to my thoughts on karatedo and not karatejutsu. There is nothing about tea making that requires a lifetime devotion to the preparation, but there is a lifetime devotion to the art of making tea that does. Anyone can plunk a tea bag in hot water and I'll bet it even tastes good. 'Sado' is about so much more than tea, but yes, you can also make some lovely tea along the way.

 

[Flying Crane]

He did say in another thread he probably wouldn’t stay on the thread after his OP.

Yup, I read it too. I just felt like poking him.

 

[Flying Crane]

There was a wing Chun guy who wanted to learn Tibetan White Crane, so my Sifu let him come to class, which he did for a while. But when he was there, he would try to talk to me about wing Chun, and try to talk me into going to his wing Chun school.

Guy couldn’t focus. Whatever he was doing, he was thinking about doing something else. That is crap training.

 

[dvcochran]

Then my tone may be being misinterpreted. Maybe I need a color chart or something.

What you said is interesting and I would like to know more about your thoughts on the subject.
What you said is interesting and it differs from my experience. Let's compare notes.
What you said is interesting, but not pertinent to what I asked.
I don't think I agree with what you said. Let me make sure I understand you before we argue.
In my experience, you're simply wrong. Please provide evidence to back up your point.

You just can't bring yourself to say it can you? Dude, your tone is WRONG for the majority of people. It is most often offensive, confusing, and sometimes abusive. You just don't seem to want to hear and think "hey all these people are saying the same things. Maybe they are right". Come man. You are better than that.
I get that you don't know me. The psych profile report of me when I was in LE said I was brutally honest. The brutally part is a little strong (I have simmered over the years) but It is a perfect description for my engineering mindset and very busy life. I don't have time for and disdain wasteful bs and circular discussions, which is where you strive to take yours. It is just tiresome. Per your suggestions I am putting you on ignore.

 

[skribs]

You just can't bring yourself to say it can you? Dude, your tone is WRONG for the majority of people. It is most often offensive, confusing, and sometimes abusive. You just don't seem to want to hear and think "hey all these people are saying the same things. Maybe they are right". Come man. You are better than that.
I get that you don't know me. The psych profile report of me when I was in LE said I was brutally honest. The brutally part is a little strong (I have simmered over the years) but It is a perfect description for my engineering mindset and very busy life. I don't have time for and disdain wasteful bs and circular discussions, which is where you strive to take yours. It is just tiresome. Per your suggestions I am putting you on ignore.

You're judging me on my tone, based on text? Text is a medium that can't translate tone very well. It's like judging someone's looks based on hearing them on the radio.

 

[skribs]

I believe you are correct. I have met and trained with people who do kata and cannot explain what some of the moves in them are intended to do, nor can they demonstrate them if they can explain them. This is not, I believe, their fault. Rather, they have been cheated. And there isn't one culprit here. Drift happens. Technique is not always correctly transmitted. Karate becomes what some call 'surface karate'. There is some application, but no deep inspection of the techniques being employed.

That's what I think has happened to the Taekwondo poomsae. It's like the telephone game, where it starts off with "John built a house on the Lake" and by the time it gets to the end it's "James bought hives of lotion."

 

[skribs]

I'm doing what I can. But I never intended to try to persuade anyone that I have the truth or anything like it. Just my opinion, which I've stated.

To be clear: your opinion has value. If some people don't like it, too bad for them.

 

[Mitlov]

Skribs:

Do you follow the channel practicalkatabunkai on YouTube, Iain Abernethy's channel? If you're interested in forms application, he's as good as it gets. Even if he doesn't break down WT Poomsae specifically, I'll bet you'll recognize some sequences and get ideas for alternative, more infighting-oriented applications. A sample:

The kata Kururunfa as normally performed:

His interpretation of that palms together / cat stance / knife hand block opening sequence:

 

[skribs]

Skribs:

Do you follow the channel practicalkatabunkai on YouTube, Iain Abernethy's channel? If you're interested in forms application, he's as good as it gets. Even if he doesn't break down WT Poomsae specifically, I'll bet you'll recognize some sequences and get ideas for alternative, more infighting-oriented applications. A sample:

The kata Kururunfa as normally performed:

His interpretation of that palms together / cat stance / knife hand block opening sequence:

I'll check it out when I get a chance (if not this weekend, then Monday when I catch a break at work). The only Karate guy on my list at the moment is Jesse Enkamp, the "karate nerd".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know, as it is outside of my experience. That is, I've never experienced training that had a holistic (to misuse the term slightly) approach to karate and did not practice kata.

I find it difficult to conceptualize, that's for sure. I am imagining a simple kata, which over time and study reveals deeper meaning and a myriad of techniques. Then, a set of techniques taught that implement all of the things that one simple kata offers, without missing any. As I am still finding deeper meaning in even the most basic of our kata, and don't expect the well to run dry any time soon (or ever), I'm not sure how those could all be extracted and codified, let alone taught in a cogent manner.

Let's say a given kata can yield 100 applications. So let's say someone has juiced that particular orange, and distilled it down to 100 sets of instructions and application. Now they have to teach it, and at the appropriate time and level of understanding, and that's just assuming that 100 was all that was there to be found. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

My experience is that you can do much the same (slightly different process, but same journey) with a core of techniques. The techniques lead to the principles, which lead back to reexamination of the techniques for more application, variations on the technique, then other uses of the principles (including other techniques). The difference, I think, is one of what we use as the focus for the exploration. Kata works for that, and I think core techniques can, too - serving in a similar capacity. I still go back to some of the techniques I know and find new uses for the control principles, for instance.

I don't know what the result is. I don't know a result anymore. Karate is, there is no end that I can see or am aware of, short of the grave. I'm not trying to woo-woo or mystical here. I just don't think of karate as a thing anymore; it's a way, a path, a method of living and of seeing the world, and such a tiny part of it is about hitting people (although I do enjoy that too).

The result isn't the end point - just the ongoing outcome of the approach. The way, path, and method of living is, to me, the result of the approach.

I can accept that. I'll have to return again to my thoughts on karatedo and not karatejutsu. There is nothing about tea making that requires a lifetime devotion to the preparation, but there is a lifetime devotion to the art of making tea that does. Anyone can plunk a tea bag in hot water and I'll bet it even tastes good. 'Sado' is about so much more than tea, but yes, you can also make some lovely tea along the way.

I have a hard time working with that distinction, because I see a lot of "do" in "justsu" systems. Whether it was there originally or not, I cannot say. But there are certainly modern practitioners who make a lifestyle out of the self-cultivation in their art.

 

[pdg]

We're told to do a scissor block and shown what the move looks like. Then we're told how to properly chamber it, where are hands should be (i.e. the inside block too short or too long) and other details are corrected.

There is 0 application training that is derived from the forms. This has been my experience at multiple schools. This has been my experience when I look up instructional videos on the forms provided by various masters (not just one). This has been my experience when watching the forms be critiqued. "Scissor block" is the most description we get of the technique.

This isn't to say we don't learn application and we don't drill techniques on a partner. We do. They just don't come from the forms. The training is very compartmentalized in that way.

It's as if the forms are Language Arts, the sparring is Science, and our application drills are Math. We'll learn a form that has a scissor block, learn an application drill that features a knife-hand block and a sweep (among other things), and then spar with kicks. My understanding is that most KKW schools (or at least the stereotypical KKW school) does this or even less - many don't even have the application training at all.

I put all of this in there so it's understood that parroting the form isn't the only training we do. But it is the only form-related training we do. I do learn a lot at my dojang, it's just hard to connect the forms to what we actually use.

Well, we have some application drills as I said - the scripted step sparring intentionally uses moves from the patterns and are introduced at roughly the same intervals.

As far as I've seen, the various types of 1 step don't have choreographed moves - the instruction is "use any attack or defence from the patterns up to your grade".

So you have the attacker choose any attack (hand or foot technique) from the patterns, but not tell the defender.

The defender then responds with any defence from the patterns, and also counter from the same pool.

This is supposed to be done at full speed so as to reinforce what you've learned from all those patterns, and you're not restricted to the single "book application" - want to use a rising block against a downward (axe) kick, go ahead and make it work


Oh, and last night - we did a bit of 1 step and I made use of a scissor block

 

[skribs]

Well, we have some application drills as I said - the scripted step sparring intentionally uses moves from the patterns and are introduced at roughly the same intervals.

As far as I've seen, the various types of 1 step don't have choreographed moves - the instruction is "use any attack or defence from the patterns up to your grade".

So you have the attacker choose any attack (hand or foot technique) from the patterns, but not tell the defender.

The defender then responds with any defence from the patterns, and also counter from the same pool.

This is supposed to be done at full speed so as to reinforce what you've learned from all those patterns, and you're not restricted to the single "book application" - want to use a rising block against a downward (axe) kick, go ahead and make it work


Oh, and last night - we did a bit of 1 step and I made use of a scissor block

How did you use it?