Karate is kata, kata is karate

[skribs]

Ok, you want the "talking to a 5 year old" version.

I apologise, I didn't realise...

Ok, so...

I could have accomplished all of it without patterns practice, but it would have been a different training methodology, so it is what it is.

Here's one specific:

An opponent threw a rear leg high turning kick - I stepped in to reduce momentum, blocked with a high outer forearm and countered with a reverse punch. Moves 1 and 2 from do-san.

I don't see how that's a deeper understanding of the form. That's just a surface level regurgitation of the block and punch.

 

[pdg]

A great example of how this discussion fell apart is in my thread about the double-knife-hand block. I was primarily looking at the off-hand, why we use that particular finishing position (palm-up, next to solar plexus). People kept fixating on the main hand - the knife hand block. I was trying to figure out the reason for the off-hand positioning after that motion. Why not palm down? Why not a regular knife-hand block with the other hand chambered?

I assume that is analogous to our knife hand guarding block...

Have you tried doing that 'block' with your offhand in another position?

Palm down feels unnaturally awkward.

Going to chamber on the hip doesn't suit the swing motion of the main hand / shoulder / torso.

 

[skribs]

Ok, you want the "talking to a 5 year old" version.

I apologise, I didn't realise...

Ok, so...

I could have accomplished all of it without patterns practice, but it would have been a different training methodology, so it is what it is.

Here's one specific:

An opponent threw a rear leg high turning kick - I stepped in to reduce momentum, blocked with a high outer forearm and countered with a reverse punch. Moves 1 and 2 from do-san.

No, I wanted the "not-a-politician-trying-to-avoid-a-question-I-don't-know-the-answer-to" type of answer.

 

[skribs]

I assume that is analogous to our knife hand guarding block...

Have you tried doing that 'block' with your offhand in another position?

Palm down feels unnaturally awkward.

Going to chamber on the hip doesn't suit the swing motion of the main hand / shoulder / torso.

Palm down is our default position in Hapkido, and the default position in many Kung Fu guards I've seen from training videos I've found. (See, I'm not just limiting myself to my Master's TKD course). It's not uncomfortable at all.

It also fits the swing motion of the main hand fine. Many blocks are chambered cross and the off-hand is pulled to the hip.

However, your point about the swing motion of the shoulder and torso is the part that intrigues me. I hadn't considered that, and playing around with it a bit does make sense. When I factor the swing motion in, palm up is a more natural finishing position. So, to clarify, I've been asking this question for about 4 years, and you're the first person to be able to actually answer it. Everyone else has been hung up on other parts of the technique (why a knife-hand instead of a fist? why a block instead of a strike or throw?). Nobody has addressed the mechanic itself.

So, it's okay for you to be proud for being able to answer the question. But considering nobody else on here could provide that answer for me, please don't look down on me for not coming to that conclusion, either.

 

[pdg]

Palm down is our default position in Hapkido, and the default position in many Kung Fu guards I've seen from training videos I've found. (See, I'm not just limiting myself to my Master's TKD course). It's not uncomfortable at all.

It also fits the swing motion of the main hand fine. Many blocks are chambered cross and the off-hand is pulled to the hip.

However, your point about the swing motion of the shoulder and torso is the part that intrigues me. I hadn't considered that, and playing around with it a bit does make sense. When I factor the swing motion in, palm up is a more natural finishing position. So, to clarify, I've been asking this question for about 4 years, and you're the first person to be able to actually answer it. Everyone else has been hung up on other parts of the technique (why a knife-hand instead of a fist? why a block instead of a strike or throw?). Nobody has addressed the mechanic itself.

So, it's okay for you to be proud for being able to answer the question. But considering nobody else on here could provide that answer for me, please don't look down on me for not coming to that conclusion, either.

For the way 'we' arrive at the finishing position I believe you're describing, the other off hand position options you gave just don't feel right.

The torso swing I was referring to is a different movement to what happens with say a high section knife hand block (or forearm, or fist ) which is cross chambered and the offhand finishes on the hip.

 

[pdg]

Here's a pic I stole of a knife hand guarding block:

Is it similar?

 

[Flying Crane]

Here is the really cool part about forms / kata. So long as they are copied correctly, all those deeper meanings and applications and principles remain... whether the person doing or teaching the form knows they are there or not.

I used to have a pretty decent o'soto gari (outer reaping throw). When I started taking karate, the first class they started teaching me to walk forward and backward in front stance. (the c-step and everything) These steps show up in the different kata quite a bit. As it turns out, if you take the first half of a forward step in front stance, then step back into front stance, you are doing one of the variations of o'soto gari. My o'soto gari got better. Over time, as I do more kata, I am getting better at making different entrances to o'soto gari... basically every time you step forward into front stance, can be seen as an entrance into o'soto gari... whether you are going forward, or turning. With the kata, concentrating on me keeping a low stance, and taking the c-step into forward stance... my karate sensei was able to greatly improve my o'soto gari... even though he didn't "know" that version of o'soto gari. My sensei asked me to share a little jujitsu with the class... I showed them this version of o'soto gari and showed how they had been practicing it since day one, in karate. They got it so well, I sometimes teach my jujitsu guys the karate front stance before doing o'soto gari. After that first demo in karate, my sensei said "now I know why you smile when we practice Taikyoku Shodan."

So even though your lineage may have watered things down to "just copy," doesn't mean all hope is lost. If they copied right... its still there, but may take more work by the student to find. When I teach Jujitsu, I teach kata exactly as my sensei taught me, because I don't believe I know enough about the kata, to make sure I don't drop something out just because I have not yet found it. I may teach other variations of the kata, as variations, or more applicable in certain situations... But since I keep finding new things in my very first jujitsu kata (katate tori hazushi), even after 25 years of study... I don't think I am ready to change it. But I can show you a bunch of things I found in it, and a bunch of cool variations. Hopefully my students will one day fill in the gaps I missed... and then help me to find them as well.

That depends on one’s definition of what it means to copy it correctly. If it is merely surface copying, it can be “correct” while still being entirely wrong. Techniques on the form are being executed without engaging the engine. Stances lack rooting, so punches (as example) lack power from the legs and body and instead rely on arm and shoulder strength alone.

The choreography is correct, but the quality of the movement is low.

If they never get a deeper understanding, then they could practice forever and never improve.

 

[pdg]

I don't see how that's a deeper understanding of the form. That's just a surface level regurgitation of the block and punch.

Well, I'm going to step away from this particular part of the conversation.

It appears we have some sort of language barrier - my initial thoughts weren't enough and you asked for specific examples of use, I gave a specific example and that's not enough either.

So - that's that.

Feel free to enquire about other things like that hand position question though

 

[pdg]

So, it's okay for you to be proud for being able to answer the question. But considering nobody else on here could provide that answer for me, please don't look down on me for not coming to that conclusion, either.

There's really no pride involved.

That's the sort of thing I was on about before - that's the sort of thing I'll analyse and consider.

I'd like to think that other people process the same as I do, but I'm realistic enough to know that's not happening.

So there's no looking down either.

 

[skribs]

Here's a pic I stole of a knife hand guarding block:

View attachment 22476

Is it similar?

This is the exact technique.

Like I said (and you didn't comment on) - this is the kind of answer I was looking for in those previous threads. This actually helps with half of the blocks I've had questions about, not just the double-knife-hand. The augmented outside block immediately sprung to mind, that's a natural landing position if swinging the shoulders that way. The double outside-block I can see in a similar manner - it puts your weight forward compared to a single outside block. I hadn't considered the other hand as simply being a weight, and the effect it has on your shoulders, center of gravity, momentum, etc.

I'll have to play around with some of the other techniques, particularly our crane stance or reverse stance blocks, and how this affects those.

And, now that I have that surface level understanding, I have a foundation to build on and analyze them.

Well, I'm going to step away from this particular part of the conversation.

It appears we have some sort of language barrier - my initial thoughts weren't enough and you asked for specific examples of use, I gave a specific example and that's not enough either.

So - that's that.

Feel free to enquire about other things like that hand position question though

You made a claim early on you're getting more out of your forms than I am. This was an example of you getting something out of your forms, but not more than I am.

 

[wab25]

The choreography is correct, but the quality of the movement is low.

If they never get a deeper understanding, then they could practice forever and never improve.

I agree. If the instructor doesn't know whats there, it will be harder for the student. But, if the student does the leg work to figure out what it was, as they put in the better rooting, the better stances... the deeper things will then be there to find. But, you are correct... they could, and many do, practice forever and never improve. Many won't even know they are missing something.

 

[skribs]

There's really no pride involved.

That's the sort of thing I was on about before - that's the sort of thing I'll analyse and consider.

I'd like to think that other people process the same as I do, but I'm realistic enough to know that's not happening.

So there's no looking down either.

One thing to keep in mind - a lot of these questions kind of end up in the TATA category (too afraid to ask). Like you said, you'd be shocked to hear a higher up ask these questions.

When you learn something new as a green belt, you don't even know what you don't know. So you don't even ask questions, because you don't know where to begin. As you master that concept, the questions start coming. How to do it correctly, how to improve it, how to apply it. Some questions you don't ask because you don't think of them, and others you don't ask because you can't just ask 50 questions about a technique and expect to get any practice in. Some questions you put on hold, some you just forget about. As @gpseymour said in the other thread, some concepts in forms exist to be extrapolated later, you're building the muscle memory now so you can focus on the new information later.

However, sometimes you get to a point where you think, "If I ask that question, people are going to say I should have asked it as a green belt." In fact, that's kind of what you said in this thread. So you get your black belt, and you're not quite sure of something, but you're thinking that you should have probably asked that at blue belt or red belt. And then you get to the point where you're way up there, and it's way too late. This is a TATA question. And it's what's happened with a few of the questions I bring up on here.

 

[Mitlov]

Ok, you want the "talking to a 5 year old" version.

I apologise, I didn't realise...

Ok, so...

I could have accomplished all of it without patterns practice, but it would have been a different training methodology, so it is what it is.

Here's one specific:

An opponent threw a rear leg high turning kick - I stepped in to reduce momentum, blocked with a high outer forearm and countered with a reverse punch. Moves 1 and 2 from do-san.

Did somebody kill somebody's dog here and I just missed it?

Getting to the substance of the debate, I think the explanation may have less to do with specific posters and more to do with specific forms. With some forms, they are designed to be "that you see is what you get" with just one specific application, and there's no real purpose to a deeper bunkai analysis. A lot of recently developed forms fit into this mold. Take, as an extreme example, Enshin karate's Kuro Obi no Kata leaves no room for subjective interpretation of what they're doing:

Some other forms are malleable in interpretation, potentially being full of throws and infighting. Some don't even make sense unless you look for those sorts of interpretations. This is common in forms originally developed out of old Okinawan katas. Take, as an extreme example, Shotokan's Tekki Shodan, which isn't even recognizable as fighting without Abernethy-style interpretation.

From what I've seen, ITF forms are often based off Okinawan katas (modified, but based on them). WT forms look like they were developed from scratch with a single viable interpretation to their movements.

If pdg is an ITF taekwondoin, and skribs is a WT taekwondoin, it's no surprise to me that pdg finds more value in "studying the potential application of forms" than skribs does. Not all forms are intended to have Abernethy-style bunkai interpretation applied to them. Many more recent forms are not, and to me WT Poomsae look like they were intended to drill body movement, precision, and be a performance art, as opposed to undergoing Abernethy-style interpretation for hidden throws and infighting techniques.

 

[pdg]

You made a claim early on you're getting more out of your forms than I am. This was an example of you getting something out of your forms, but not more than I am.

Well, maybe this is one small example of me drawing and getting more out of my patterns than you.

I obviously have no basis for comparison so I could have reached those conclusions another way, but my interpretation of things like that hand position is derived from my pattern practice.

 

[skribs]

Well, maybe this is one small example of me drawing and getting more out of my patterns than you.

But...it's not an example of you getting more out of your patterns than me. It's an example of you getting the same out of your patterns as me. The form says to block and use a reverse punch. You blocked and used a reverse punch. There's nothing profound there.

You're criticizing me of not getting anything deeper out of my forms, but this is surface-level stuff you're giving me. It doesn't tell me how the form taught you any deeper concepts, or what you've drawn from the form, other than what's sitting there at the surface. All I can tell based on this, is you have a surface-level understanding of the form. You've just parroted a block and punch. What more is there?

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree. If the instructor doesn't know whats there, it will be harder for the student. But, if the student does the leg work to figure out what it was, as they put in the better rooting, the better stances... the deeper things will then be there to find. But, you are correct... they could, and many do, practice forever and never improve. Many won't even know they are missing something.

I am skeptical that that could happen, at least in most cases.

To use the punch example, most people believe they know how to throw a punch. And most people who have not been otherwise trained, will use the arm and shoulder muscles, without (or with minimal) leg and body engagement. That can be effective if they possess the strength and athleticism, so they have no reason to believe something is missing, that it could be better. Without someone to guide them, they will not figure it out on their own.

 

[pdg]

One thing to keep in mind - a lot of these questions kind of end up in the TATA category (too afraid to ask). Like you said, you'd be shocked to hear a higher up ask these questions.

When you learn something new as a green belt, you don't even know what you don't know. So you don't even ask questions, because you don't know where to begin. As you master that concept, the questions start coming. How to do it correctly, how to improve it, how to apply it. Some questions you don't ask because you don't think of them, and others you don't ask because you can't just ask 50 questions about a technique and expect to get any practice in. Some questions you put on hold, some you just forget about. As @gpseymour said in the other thread, some concepts in forms exist to be extrapolated later, you're building the muscle memory now so you can focus on the new information later.

However, sometimes you get to a point where you think, "If I ask that question, people are going to say I should have asked it as a green belt." In fact, that's kind of what you said in this thread. So you get your black belt, and you're not quite sure of something, but you're thinking that you should have probably asked that at blue belt or red belt. And then you get to the point where you're way up there, and it's way too late. This is a TATA question. And it's what's happened with a few of the questions I bring up on here.

Shocked would be the wrong term - I believe I said surprised.

And that's because - in my limited experience - these sorts of questions are either asked at earlier points or answered without being asked.

I wouldn't however be surprised if a lot of the higher grades couldn't answer... More than a few just don't consider this sort of thing and even more don't consider it important.

Thankfully, the times I've felt the need to ask this sort of question I've either got an answer or they've been honest enough to say they don't know but will enquire on my behalf. The culture in my school as I see it is that you shouldn't be afraid to ask, even if you think it's a silly question

And in honesty - I have asked a lot of similar 'level' questions when it was stuff I couldn't work out. Often just discussing the question led to the answer rather than being given it directly.

 

[pdg]

But...it's not an example of you getting more out of your patterns than me. It's an example of you getting the same out of your patterns as me. The form says to block and use a reverse punch. You blocked and used a reverse punch. There's nothing profound there.

You're criticizing me of not getting anything deeper out of my forms, but this is surface-level stuff you're giving me. It doesn't tell me how the form taught you any deeper concepts, or what you've drawn from the form, other than what's sitting there at the surface. All I can tell based on this, is you have a surface-level understanding of the form. You've just parroted a block and punch. What more is there?

I was referring to the analysis of the mechanics in that hand position question actually - moved on from the block/punch

Move 1 in Dan-Gun is to turn left into a knife hand guarding block.

The contemplation of the process required to arrive at that finish position is what led me to my conclusions on the 'purpose' of that offhand.

 

[skribs]

Thankfully, the times I've felt the need to ask this sort of question I've either got an answer or they've been honest enough to say they don't know but will enquire on my behalf. The culture in my school as I see it is that you shouldn't be afraid to ask, even if you think it's a silly question

And in honesty - I have asked a lot of similar 'level' questions when it was stuff I couldn't work out. Often just discussing the question led to the answer rather than being given it directly.

So you should understand why I'm asking these questions instead of giving me a hard time about it.

I was referring to the analysis of the mechanics in that hand position question actually - moved on from the block/punch

Move 1 in Dan-Gun is to turn left into a knife hand guarding block.

The contemplation of the process required to arrive at that finish position is what led me to my conclusions on the 'purpose' of that offhand.

Based on the context of your previous post, this was impossible to interpret. It sounded like you were just providing an example of drawing application from a form.

 

[pdg]

Some other forms are malleable in interpretation, potentially being full of throws and infighting. Some don't even make sense unless you look for those sorts of interpretations. This is common in forms originally developed out of old Okinawan katas. Take, as an extreme example, Shotokan's Tekki Shodan, which isn't even recognizable as fighting without Abernethy-style interpretation.

If that's the case, then it appears I'm an Abernathy stylist

There's a lot in there I recognise from ITF patterns (somewhat unsurprisingly) and most of it I believe I can interpret as usable material...