Karate is kata, kata is karate

[pdg]

There is more to our training, it's just not derived from the poomsae.

Do you do any set sparring at all?

If you do, then surely it contains punches, kicks, blocks and avoidance?

And if it does, then maybe there are parallels there that you're just not told?

 

[skribs]

Do you do any set sparring at all?

If you do, then surely it contains punches, kicks, blocks and avoidance?

And if it does, then maybe there are parallels there that you're just not told?

If there are parallels I'm not drawing, then it's not much of a way to teach the application, is there?

 

[Jaeimseu]

There is more to our training, it's just not derived from the poomsae. I also have to agree with you about the MMA guys.

What do you do with the techniques you don't have an application for?

Honestly, I don’t spend any time at all worrying about that. There are so many tools for different scenarios that I don’t find it worth my time to figure out how to use a particular movement from poomsae. I’d much rather take a scenario and test which tools are effective than try to force a movement into a scenario because Taekwondo.


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[skribs]

Honestly, I don’t spend any time at all worrying about that. There are so many tools for different scenarios that I don’t find it worth my time to figure out how to use a particular movement from poomsae. I’d much rather take a scenario and test which tools are effective than try to force a movement into a scenario because Taekwondo.


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With that in mind, what do you feel you get out of the poomsae?

 

[Jaeimseu]

With that in mind, what do you feel you get out of the poomsae?

Lots of things you’ve mentioned before: body control, balance, power generation, breathing, attention to detail, cataloguing techniques, individual practice, etc. But poomsae is not the focus of my program, nor would I want it to be.


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[pdg]

Honestly, I don’t spend any time at all worrying about that. There are so many tools for different scenarios that I don’t find it worth my time to figure out how to use a particular movement from poomsae. I’d much rather take a scenario and test which tools are effective than try to force a movement into a scenario because Taekwondo.


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It's not about forcing a movement into it though, it's all about what you said just before that - testing which tools are effective.

 

[Jaeimseu]

It's not about forcing a movement into it though, it's all about what you said just before that - testing which tools are effective.

It’s a difference of starting point. I’d rather start with a problem and find a tool to solve it than start with a movement and look for a problem to solve.


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[pdg]

It’s a difference of starting point. I’d rather start with a problem and find a tool to solve it than start with a movement and look for a problem to solve.


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And that's how we do it.

In say our one step, you are given a problem - someone attacks you. You are not told in which fashion they are going to attack.

You are then free to choose whichever tool you think might work from all the ones given to you in the patterns. If the one you choose doesn't work, then you can try something else.

 

[Jaeimseu]

And that's how we do it.

In say our one step, you are given a problem - someone attacks you. You are not told in which fashion they are going to attack.

You are then free to choose whichever tool you think might work from all the ones given to you in the patterns. If the one you choose doesn't work, then you can try something else.

I don’t want to limit myself to the patterns. There’s so much that’s not included (even if you reverse engineer applications).


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[pdg]

I don’t want to limit myself to the patterns. There’s so much that’s not included (even if you reverse engineer applications).


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An example of one not included?

 

[skribs]

And that's how we do it.

In say our one step, you are given a problem - someone attacks you. You are not told in which fashion they are going to attack.

You are then free to choose whichever tool you think might work from all the ones given to you in the patterns. If the one you choose doesn't work, then you can try something else.

We do this for Hapkido. But our patterns are wayyyyyyy different there.

 

[Jaeimseu]

An example of one not included?

Any number of kicks, boxing/mma style punches, grabs, locks, and throws that don’t depend on poomsae movements.


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[pdg]

Any number of kicks, boxing/mma style punches, grabs, locks, and throws that don’t depend on poomsae movements.


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Oh, poomsae. (I honestly don't know how to spell that so I copied you)

Carry on then, nothing to see here



One day I'll actually sit down and watch them...

 

[skribs]

Oh, poomsae. (I honestly don't know how to spell that so I copied you)

Carry on then, nothing to see here



One day I'll actually sit down and watch them...

What are you differentiating poomsae from?

 

[pdg]

What are you differentiating poomsae from?

Apparently from tul.

That was the second instance recently (the other was from you) saying that there's loads of stuff not included in poomsae.

 

[Mitlov]

An example of one not included?

The kata of Shotokan karate do not include any hook kicks, spinning hook kicks, spinning back kicks, or axe kicks, if I'm remembering my Shotokan days correctly.

 

[skribs]

Apparently from tul.

That was the second instance recently (the other was from you) saying that there's loads of stuff not included in poomsae.

I just assumed "poomsae" was the Korean term. That name covers all of the forms we do.

 

[dvcochran]

The main website seems to be down for Mr. Goodin's blog, but here is a link to an article on Scribd. The Why of Bunkai: A Guide For Beginners

The article is VERY good at understanding how karate started to change in its approach to bunkai with the use of labels. Originally, a student would have learned the motions of the kata and its various uses. Not all of the motions in the kata are blocks, but when you put labels on the motion, it then locks that motion into place, so to speak. Then you have all of the "tier one" applications that were not intended as a simple block/punch technique and get VERY disfunctional applications based on the tier 1 idea. For example, you are doing to separate blocks to two different attackers in multiple directions.

Now we further the "telephone" game with karate's transmission. Funakoshi admits that he made further changes to the original kata he learned when he brought it to Japan. Funakoshi did not like free sparring that the Japanese students liked. The kumite that was introduced was based on the sport of kendo and it's distancing and relied heavily on the 'ippon kumite' idea. This is why none of the applications from their kata/kumite make sense and the sparring looks nothing like the moves from the kata. The Shuri kata that Funakoshi learned was based on civilian self-defense and the moves and applications were based on very close quarters and responses to a variety of those common attacks (McCarthy coined the terms Habitual Acts of Violence).

So, now this changed karate is transmitted to Korea and the applications are all taught as block/punch/kick. TKD used to be heavy on the kihon and hitting hard to break whatever you touched. There wasn't much sophistication to what was taught in the early TKD days, but it was very brutal and effective. "A Killing Art" is a very good read about some of the history of TKD and its formation. As TKD evolved, they tried to remove more of the Japanese influence out of it and removed the Japanese katas and replaced them with katas of their own. Sticking with the same idea of block/punch/kick, the sequences were moved around and based on aesthetics and not a deep underlying combat strategy. This is also when the more acrobatic kicks started to be added in to TKD to emphasize an older Korean art/game and the art started to become its own style very different from its parent art of Shotokan.

As you, and many others have seemed to notice. The kata in TKD help with body mechanics, fluidity etc. but, without reverse engineering from the older Okinawan katas (Mainly Shorin-Ryu) and trying to find sequences that look very similar and finding those applications, there IS a large void in many TKD schools. But, there are many out there that do fill the void. KKW TKD is mainly concerned with its own sport and its main focus is on the sport of TKD, just like any martial art there are exceptions to this, but by and large you won't find "old school" self-defense and applications taught and it is not taught through the vehicle of their forms.

As someone who has been in TKD for a long time I have seen some of this transformation. I am very thankful I have primarily trained at a Dojang that holds firmly to practicing Boonhae (Bunkai). We have had some very active and passionate discussions about what is or could or should be the applications in the Yudanja Poomsae. However, we are very quick to acknowledge that there are multiple uses for most techniques. That is Kukkiwan's stated explanation for much of the "vagueness" regarding the modern form sets.

 

[pdg]

However, we are very quick to acknowledge that there are multiple uses for most techniques. That is Kukkiwan's stated explanation for much of the "vagueness" regarding the modern form sets.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but are you saying they say it's better to teach none of them rather than one (or more) of them because there are multiple possibilities?

 

[dvcochran]

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but are you saying they say it's better to teach none of them rather than one (or more) of them because there are multiple possibilities?

That it is better to teach multiple options and not be locked into the idea that there is only one way to use a technique.
This can make it very hard for the teacher. They have to firmly understand the limits of a technique, or an arm or a leg for example. Marry this with "pushing" students and it can be very tough.