Karate-Do versus TKD versus Korean karate

[terryl965]

I would love to get everybody views about these three styles.
1) What seperates the styles
2) What style has more to do with self defense
3) Who was the founder of each style
4) what is the greatest aspect of each style
I will be happy to give my views once the ball gets rolling.
Thank ahead of time
Terry

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I would love to get everybody views about these three styles.
1) What seperates the styles
2) What style has more to do with self defense
3) Who was the founder of each style
4) what is the greatest aspect of each style
I will be happy to give my views once the ball gets rolling.
Thank ahead of time
Terry

I am assuming that you mean Japanese Karate, as in Shotokan? If not, the Okinawan styles are too different from the current Korean systems to really compare them - apples to oranges. My view is that Japanese Karate is a very powerful style, but lacks some of the mobility of later styles such as TKD. However, Japanese Karate would absolutely dominate, IMO, a self-defence situation over sport TKD any day of the week. Korean Karate, as in old style TKD and TSD as well as pre-TKD names such as Tae Soo Do, etc., IMO, is much, much more self-defence and military oriented than the current TKD is and more closely related to Shotokan - although with greater mobility and more kicks as well as throws and grappling.

Of the three, I would LEAST like to face Korean Karate as was taught during the Korean War and later years to Korean Army officers and conscripts. Shotokan would be my second least favourite to have to fight. Sport TKD would be my favourite to face if I had to fight as, despite impressive athleticism, many sport TKD stylists have never faced a decent boxer or grappler.

Good questions, Terry.

 

[Gemini]

I think you need to give your views to GET the ball rolling. So please do, this should be interesting.

Johnathan, though my knowledge of this is suspest at best, I did hear that the Korean Karate used by the military was devastating and the cause of great fear. I'm gonna go look for the source.

Okay, Master Stoker. Wadaya got....
opcorn:

 

[stoneheart]

To be frank, I don't see much of a difference between tae kwon do or tang soo do compared to shotokan karate, the Japanese parent of both TKD and TSD. All three arts focus heavily on power generation through hip movement, and students are taught to attack on straight lines with overwhelming force to destroy an assailant. Once you get past the emphasis on kicking and the different histories passed along in the Korean arts, you can observe that technically the arts are very much the same.

No shame in any of that, by the way. I'm not a Korean arts basher, since I trained in ITF tae kwon do all the way up to first gup. We thankfully did not follow the sine wave method in our hyung, but our school was always very cognizant of how close we were to our shotokan cousins.

 

[Makalakumu]

Shotokan is the root art for both TSD and TKD. However, TSD and TKD have really diverged from their roots. TKD has completely replaced the japanese forms with new ones and they totally rewrote the reason why people do forms. TSD still uses the old traditional forms, but is confused on how best to use them. Although both arts have more kicking then shotokan, TKD has really elevated its kicks to a new level of complexity.

Each art has its positives and negatives. All three are effective in the hands of the right fighter.

 

[arnisador]

To be frank, I don't see much of a difference between tae kwon do or tang soo do compared to shotokan karate, the Japanese parent of both TKD and TSD. All three arts focus heavily on power generation through hip movement, and students are taught to attack on straight lines with overwhelming force to destroy an assailant. Once you get past the emphasis on kicking and the different histories passed along in the Korean arts, you can observe that technically the arts are very much the same.

I think there's a great deal of truth here. Of course, there are obvious differences, but they're all in the same family of arts.

 

[stoneheart]

Shotokan is the root art for both TSD and TKD. However, TSD and TKD have really diverged from their roots. TKD has completely replaced the japanese forms with new ones and they totally rewrote the reason why people do forms.

Hi, John. Would you care to elaborate how TKD has rewritten the reasons for doing forms?

 

[Makalakumu]

Hi, John. Would you care to elaborate how TKD has rewritten the reasons for doing forms?

The way that forms are done and what they are supposed to teach is more principle based. The forms in TKD teach a person how to move, but are very light on bunkai.

 

[stoneheart]

Thanks, John. I more or less agree with that statement.

I sometimes wonder if the American Kenpo people have it right, though. They have no hidden bunkai like in the Okinawan forms. Their forms are their self-defense techniques chained together in a logical(?) fashion, so it is clearly obvious what each movement is from the very beginning, and the forms are taught as such.

As you know, in many Asian systems, students are taught the form first, and then only the bunkai, if their instructor actually knows it.

 

[Kenpoist]

I was just lurking and thought I might give my opinion. I don't know much about the traditional Korean Karate (TSD), but have studied Shotokan and TKD.

Many TKD systems place the emphasis on sport rather than practical self defense. The instructor from my old TKD school was phenominal (fast kicks/ crisp technique etc..), but the defense aspect's he taught seemed very basic. You are not always going to be able to kick your way out of a situation (long range weapon). Should you get into the medium or short ranges - you will find yourself in trouble. We studied Pro TKD as well, which has more punching than basic TKD - but still the emphasis was placed on basic punching - no real striking (open hand techniques). Unless you have been training in TKD all your life or have great flexibility - your ability to pull off high kicks and spinning kicks in combat will be risky.

My experience with Shotokan , like other traditional karate-do, was all power. Obviously very linear. One punch to kill/ waist power/ strong kiap/low to the ground etc.. We studied more practical defense than I did in TKD - grabs/ some throws/ leg sweeps etc..).

Both systems have helped me along the way to get a great foundation in speed and power, but I longed for street practical defense - thus I turned to Ed Parker Kenpo. I liked the all encompassing aspect of kenpo - use of both linear and circular movements, developing counter's to every angle of attack, utilizing your whole range of weapons (many open handed strikes to vital targets), preparing for seemingly every potential attack (chokes,lapel grabs, bear hugs, full nelson, kicks, punches, multiple attacks etc..).

It all breaks down to your needs and goals. What do what you want to accomplish in your training?

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I would love to get everybody views about these three styles.
1) What seperates the styles
2) What style has more to do with self defense
3) Who was the founder of each style
4) what is the greatest aspect of each style
I will be happy to give my views once the ball gets rolling.
Thank ahead of time
Terry

Uh oh. Well. OK.

Dont take what I say as the "truth" because I am sure I make so many mistakes.

Karate-Do can be split into two major catagories: Japanese and Okinawan. Pure Japanese styles are Shotokan, Wado-ryu, Shito-ryu, Shinto Jinenryu, Kushin-ryu and Kyokushin. The Okinawan styles are the original Karate, they were developed from south China Kungfu. There are Many okinawan styles, such as Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu, Shorin-ryu, Okinawan Kenpo and many more. The Japanese learned from the Okinawan and tailored Karate to suit their own tastes, thus gave birth to the Japanese styles as mentioned above.

Shotokan was founded by the students of Funakoshi Gichin, he was the man who popularized Karate in Japan in early 1920s. Funakoshi san was Okinawan, but his students altered his teachings to suit Japanese temperaments. Most famous of Funakoshi's student was Nakayama Masatoshi who founded the JKA.

Wado-ryu was founded by Otsuka Hironori, a Jujutsu master who later learned karate and created a mixed style. The basic techniques and forms are Okinawan, but the throws, grappling/joint locks and evasions are from Japanese Jujutsu.

Shinto Jinenryu was founded by Konishi Yasuhiro, a friend of Otsuka. It is now known as the Ryobukai.

Kushinryu was founded by Uyeshima Sanosuke, also a friend of Otsuka.

Kyokushin was founded by Oyama Masutatsu, a Korean who later became Japanese citizen. He was a student of Funakoshi san. Kyokushin is very famous for full contact fighting.

Goju-ryu was founded by Miyagi Chogun, who learned Kungfu in Fujian and then adapted it to be more suitable to Okinawan tastes. Goju has the strongest internal strength of all Karate styles.

Shito-ryu was founded by Mabuni Kenwa, this person is THE expert of forms. It is said that he knowns more than 60 Karate forms. He is an Okinawan but his style flourished mostly in Japan. Shito-ryu people are generally forms experts, and they are very knowledgeable in the self-defense applications of the forms.

Uechi-ryu was founded by Kanbun Uechi, another Okinawan who learned Kungfu in Fujian and adapted it to fit Okinawan tastes. Uechi-ryu is the most "chinese" of all Okinawan styles. Because Kanbun Uechi changed very little of the original art.

There are many styles in Okinawa which uses the name Shorin-ryu or was derived from Shorin-ryu so I won't name the founder. Sufficient to say that this is another style transplanted from south China.

The Japanese styles generally supports the sport side of Karate. However some of them like Wado-ryu has plenty of self-defense techniques included within the syllabus. In fact Wado-ryu has specific set of sword and knife defenses, and also women self-defenses. These, however, were taken from the Jujutsu that Otsuka san learned when he was young.

Tae Kwon Do was derived from ancient Korean art of Tae Kyon, this is a sport where you knock down your partner using your legs. This Tae Kyon then evolved into Tae Kwon Do when it was influenced by North China Kungfu and Japanese Karate. The present form of Tae Kwon Do was founded by General Choi Hong Hi, his style is known as the ITF style. However General Choi later had a disagreement with the Korean government & they parted ways, so the government made a new style called the WTF style. Of all martial arts in the world Tae Kwon Do is surely one which has the most complete array of kicks.

Korean Karate used to be a synonym of Tae Kwon Do. However these days it is used to refer to the martial art of Tang Soo Do, which is basically the Korean version of Okinawan Karate mixed with NorthernKungfu. Tang Soo Do was founded by GM. Hwang Kee in the 1930s. He studied many types of Kungfu and Karate during his work in manchuria, this is a province in northern china. Manchuria in the 1940s was under Japanese government. Tang Soo Do came from the Chinese word "T'ang Shoutao" which means the Fist/Hand methods/way of the Tang (Chinese) dynasty.

Today all forms of Karate and Tae Kwon Do has some kind of sports elements. Off course there are Dojos which emphasizes on training for self defense but they are a minority. Most other Dojos emphasizes competitions.

Now I must go into hiding because I am sure I made many mistakes

 

[stoneheart]

Tae Kwon Do was derived from ancient Korean art of Tae Kyon, this is a sport where you knock down your partner using your legs. This Tae Kyon then evolved into Tae Kwon Do when it was influenced by North China Kungfu and Japanese Karate. The present form of Tae Kwon Do was founded by General Choi Hong Hi, his style is known as the ITF style. However General Choi later had a disagreement with the Korean government & they parted ways, so the government made a new style called the WTF style. Of all martial arts in the world Tae Kwon Do is surely one which has the most complete array of kicks.

Tae kwon do undoubted started as shotokan karate. The instructors who started the various kwans in Korea had Japanese teachers, even if they later changed their histories to match a more Korean heritage. The Tae Kyon story is really propaganda, although it does make for a good story.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Tae kwon do undoubted started as shotokan karate. The instructors who started the various kwans in Korea had Japanese teachers, even if they later changed their histories to match a more Korean heritage. The Tae Kyon story is really propaganda, although it does make for a good story.

Uh oh.. well I have heard this version as well and I do believe that it is a strong possibility. The influence of Japanese martial arts in Tae Kwon Do is undeniable. However I also do not wish to consider Tae Kwon Do as simply a copy of Japanese Karate. The Koreans undoubtedly developed this art into something new, something different than Karate. So we have to give equal credits to the Koreans for evolving Tae Kwon Do.

 

[stoneheart]

Denny-

The Koreans have indeed made TKD their own art, and that's to be commended. I do dislike the revisionist history promulgated by various Korean arts grandmasters, though. It's fundamentally dishonest even if it is done in the name of 'patriotism'.

well I have heard this version as well and I do believe that it is a strong possibility.

It's more than a strong possibility when you look at what forms were taught in the fifties and sixties in the various kwans, before and during the 'Koreanization' of martial arts. They were the forms taught in Shotokan, including the Heian series and Tekki. The Koreans even followed the order G. Funakoshi established for the Heians, such as renaming the Okinawan Pinan 2 into Heian 1.

To this day, I believe Chung Do Kwan TKD still practices those forms, and it has been documented that Jhoon Rhee (the 'Father of American Tae Kwon Do') taught the Japanese forms before he was persuaded by General Choi to adopt the Chang Hon set.

I don't think we necessarily disagree on the main issue that TKD is now a Korean art, but the Tae Kyon story is a myth, and the sooner Korean martial artists understand their true heritage, the better in my opinion.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Denny-

The Koreans have indeed made TKD their own art, and that's to be commended. I do dislike the revisionist history promulgated by various Korean arts grandmasters, though. It's fundamentally dishonest even if it is done in the name of 'patriotism'.

Either that, or the 3rd generations masters really didn't know that their art was created out of another arts? For example, here in Indones, Shorinji Kempo black belts challenged me into a fight to the death when I told them that Shorinji Kempo were influenced by Japanese Jujutsu, particularly Hakko-ryu. They really bought the propaganda that Shorinji Kempo was the original Chinese Kungfu and Sho Doshin was the only true Shaolin grand master. So, the first and second generation teachers of Shorinji Kempo never told their 3rd generations students about the true history. Does this means the 3rd generation masters are lying? I dont think so, they were just misinformed. What do you think?

It's more than a strong possibility when you look at what forms were taught in the fifties and sixties in the various kwans, before and during the 'Koreanization' of martial arts. They were the forms taught in Shotokan, including the Heian series and Tekki. The Koreans even followed the order G. Funakoshi established for the Heians, such as renaming the Okinawan Pinan 2 into Heian 1.

Eh, they practiced Tekki and Heian too? Now thats interesting.. I thought only Hwang Kee's Tang Soo Do that practices Okinawan/Japanese forms.. thank you for this info.

I don't think we necessarily disagree on the main issue that TKD is now a Korean art, but the Tae Kyon story is a myth, and the sooner Korean martial artists understand their true heritage, the better in my opinion.

With so much at a stake, I don't think they will change their present history. Again, taking an example from Shorinji Kempo practitioners in Indonesia. The WSKO website said VERY CLEARLY that Sho Doshin the founder of Shorinji Kempo did learned Japanese and Chinese arts and combined them into a new art called Shorinji Kempo. However, the Indonesian Kempo practitioners hold on to the propaganda of the 1960s that Shorinji Kempo is the true Chinese Shaolin Kungfu and has no Jujutsu influence whatsoever. I am sure that some of Indonesian Shorinji Kempo stylist already know the truth, but they just don't want to change the "official party line" because their current propaganda has already been espoused for 40 years!

What do you think?

 

[stoneheart]

So, the first and second generation teachers of Shorinji Kempo never told their 3rd generations students about the true history. Does this means the 3rd generation masters are lying? I dont think so, they were just misinformed. What do you think?

Perhaps the younger masters are ignorant of the truth. However, remember that tae kwon do is a very recent art, despite the constant embellishments about the connection to Tae Kyon and the Hwa-Rang-Do Brotherhood. There are several prominent active grandmasters who were alive during the kwan unification period of TKD that know TKD's true origins. Whether they are responsible for furthering the Tae Kyon story or not, I don't know, but they do have a duty in my opinion to teach the true history to their students.

I am sure that some of Indonesian Shorinji Kempo stylist already know the truth, but they just don't want to change the "official party line" because their current propaganda has already been espoused for 40 years!

I can see why it would be difficulty to correct the official history now. They would lose too much face. All the more reason to tell the truth in the first place, especially in this Information Age where anyone with a computer can research just about any main stream subject to a reasonable level.

As I have said a few times, I studied tae kwon do up to first gup level as a teen-ager, and my instructor told me the 'TKD is 2000 years old' story with all the usual embellishments. I don't fault him for just repeating what he was taught. Nonetheless when I was old and savvy enough to start questioning what I was taught, I was a little disillusioned about the embroidered history.

Years later when I resumed martial arts, I looked around and inquired into a variety of dojos and their arts. I did consider returning to TKD, but the general lack of deeper knowledge in all of the dojangs I visited turned me off. I finally opted for a legitimate Okinawan Goju-Ryu karate club. They didn't have to tell me stories about their history since Goju-Ryu's past is documented clearly, and it was evident by the demonstrations the sensei gave that he both knew and could apply the applications 'hidden' away in the kata Chojun Miyagi passed down.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Perhaps the younger masters are ignorant of the truth. However, remember that tae kwon do is a very recent art. There are several prominent active grandmasters who were alive during the kwan unification period of TKD that know TKD's true origins. They do have a duty in my opinion to teach the true history to their students.

Mr. Choi Hong Hi never hides the fact that he learned Karate in Japan though. He is also very open to tell us that he created all the forms of ITF himself. However when I was studying WTF TKD, they told me that TKD was a 2000 years old art.

I can see why it would be difficulty to correct the official history now. They would lose too much face. All the more reason to tell the truth in the first place, especially in this Information Age where anyone with a computer can research just about any main stream subject to a reasonable level.

Yup, and that's why you don't see many Indonesian Shorinji Kempo stylists online

As I have said a few times, I studied tae kwon do up to first gup level as a teen-ager, and my instructor told me the 'TKD is 2000 years old' story with all the usual embellishments. I don't fault him for just repeating what he was taught. Nonetheless when I was old and savvy enough to start questioning what I was taught, I was a little disillusioned about the embroidered history.

I studied TKD only a little in the early 90s and then switch to Goju when I was in high school, not because I don't like TKD, I love the workouts and kicks, but because I am fascinated with all those Sanchin demonstrations where they withstand body blows and groin kicks!

Then later I switched to Wado because I moved to another part of the country, but I still practice the Sanchin and Tensho. They rocks!

Years later when I resumed martial arts, I looked around and inquired into a variety of dojos and their arts. I did consider returning to TKD, but the general lack of deeper knowledge in all of the dojangs I visited turned me off. I finally opted for a legitimate Okinawan Goju-Ryu karate club. They didn't have to tell me stories about their history since Goju-Ryu's past is documented clearly, and it was evident by the demonstrations the sensei gave that he both knew and could apply the applications 'hidden' away in the kata Chojun Miyagi passed down.

To me the strongest feature of Goju is the Sanchin and Tensho Kiko training, but then again they do have wonderful Bunkai.

This has been a wonderful discussions my friend, I am enjoying every minute of it!

 

[Last Fearner]

Sorry - - this is going to be a long one! To give my reply to Master Stoker's original question, I must point out that I take the position that "Korean Karate" was a term orginally used to describe the early introduction of "Taekwondo" to westerners who had never heard of TKD, but basically knew what Karate was. The mislabeled "Korean Karate," and even "Taekwondo Karate," was a result of marketing in the U.S. Later, people began to distinguish between variations of teaching Taekwondo, and its lineage through different organizations. Thus, some of the "Japanese influenced" schools maintained the "Korean Karate" term as a connection the their roots.

For the definition of "Korean Taekwondo," it should be accepted as a general label to represent all of Korean Martial Art as that was the intention of the Korean Government's involvment in the official "session for naming" the Korean Martial Art in 1955 as described in General Choi's text. Even if Choi's own background was heavily influenced by Japanese Karate, and his own motive may have been to have the world accept his "Oh Do Kwan" methods of teaching, and associate it with the term "Taekwon-do," his goal was not the same as the other Kwan leaders, nor the Korean Government for that matter.

To this extent, I must take issue with some comments that have been posted here, and left unchallenged as though they are facts, or insights that others should accept. I have done extensive research into the history of Korea, and its Martial Art development. If one is to accept the term "Taekwondo" (or "Taekwon-do) as General Choi's creation, then they would think of it as a "new art" that is born out of Shotokan Karate with some influences of the ancient Taekyon. If you are to believe that "Taekwondo" is the combination of the background and Japanese influences of the various Kwans emerging during, and immediately following the Japanese occupation (1910 - 1945), then you might conclude that Taekwondo is of Japanese origin with no legitimate connection to ancient Korean Martial Art such as Taekyon, Hwarang-do, or Subak.

However, I submit that this view is a very limited, narrow one with a lack of depth in understanding of true Taekwondo, that perhaps a beginner student, might not understand the same as a Taekwondo Master (not to be condescending, but those who dedicate 30 plus years to studying one particular subject tend to know the true history and meaning better than internet researchers, and book readers). There are those who reject the connection of Taekwondo to Taekyon because others have said it to be false, and they willingly agree based on bits of information. It is not false.

General Choi, and even the original Kwans have no affect on the intentions of the Korean Government to reconnect with their true, legitimate, and real history of Martial Art development that stems way back beyond 2000 years. Their recorded history shows a unique and cultural development of their own self defense, and social and moral discipline. After the brutal Japanese occupation, they chose to disassociate with Japanese culture, and re-establish, re-develop, and re-name what was rightfully theirs.

Taekyon was not just a "sport game" of knocking people down with your feet. That competition developed over time out of what was a method of self defense practiced by villagers. As Subak was a name given in early times to Korean Martial Art, the Hwarang practiced the same basic skills with a military overtone. The more crude system of self defense practiced by the common people became known as the "kicking method," or "Taekyon." This also became a game of skill for entertainment (like paintball games attempt to immitate real combat, and gladiator games were based on real combat skills). Taekyon was not soley a "game." It was first a method of self defense.

In my research, and my own professional opinion, the Korean National Martial Art known as "Taekwondo" is a culmination of all of Korea's historical development and should be taken as a continuous chain of lineage from the three kingdoms period until today, with a period of about 35 years of supression, and distortion through a foriegn occupancy.

To be frank, I don't see much of a difference between tae kwon do or tang soo do compared to shotokan karate, the Japanese parent of both TKD and TSD.

Shotokan Karate could be viewed as the "parent" of General Choi's Oh Do Kwan, and influencing other Kwans in the early 1900s, but a generalized statemtent that it is the "parent" of all Taekwondo would be false.

. . . when you look at what forms were taught in the fifties and sixties in the various kwans, before and during the 'Koreanization' of martial arts. They were the forms taught in Shotokan . . .

I believe it is a huge mistake for people to look at the "forms" taught in a school, and assume that this labels the school as an off-shoot of another system. Forms are a very small part of the overall curriculum, and any similarity in techniques is going to be natural as they are discovered by many people in many different countries as being the best way to execute those techniques. It dose not determine that one came from the other, just that they both came to the same conclusion. Any borrowing that General Choi, and others did of form patterns is simply a tool to teach the Korean Martial Art in a similar fashion. General Choi's background in Karate does not taint the entire Taekwondo development unless you think of Taekwondo as his creation - - which many do not.

I don't think we necessarily disagree on the main issue that TKD is now a Korean art, but the Tae Kyon story is a myth . . .

I am sorry to be so blunt, but this is false, and comes from an incomplete understanding of Korean history as a nation, and the Martial Art that was there all along. The connection to Taekyon is genuine, and it's based on the FACT that Taekyon, Subak, Hapkido, Hwarangdo, and other methods of Martial Art training born of Korean history prior to the Japanese annexation in 1910, really existed and are documented. After the occupation, Korea simply wanted to return to it's own culture, present its own Martial Art (which really was its own) and named it "Taekwondo." The fact that those young Kwan leaders had such a Japanese influence was simpy a fact of life due to the reality that all they knew their entire life was Japanese control. Other, older Koreans, remembered the skills of pre-occupation, and post-occupation has naturally taken some time to get back on track with genuine Korean Martial Art training - - but be informed - - it is called "Taekwondo" and it does represent the past 2000 plus years of development, whether younger minds of modern beginner students understand it, and want to admit it, or not.

This is my professional opinion. I hope I do not offend anyone, but I feel I must state an opposing view to what I believe is modern, western misinformation.

Thanks for listening and not booing!
Chief Master Eisenhart

 

[Pheonix]

I don't know about the other two but I did take TKD for a few years and made it to brown belt 3rd degree. I liked it but it progressed too fast for me you could not retain anything and really you weren't required to retain that much. I prefer to be required to retain what you have learned otherwise you really don't have as much insentive to learn more. Also after all those years I didn't learn a thing about the history of TKD. All the same I still Think It is a GREAT art.

Farang

 

[stoneheart]

Greetings, Mr. Eisenhart and thank you for the dialogue. I plan to reply to your post as soon as I can. I have a family emergency at the moment.