Understanding Tae Kwon Do

[dancingalone]

Dancingalone you have some great points about the forms, but I am confused by your statement about They specifically brought me in to apply Okinawan karate methodology to the Chang Hon patterns they use. What is it you are bringing to the Tuls that was nt already there by GM Cho?

I'm not sure what General Choi himself intended to be within his forms. When I studied Jhoon Rhee TKD, we honestly didn't do much applications training and we weren't members of the ITF so we didn't get any help from that quarter. Without meaning to upset folks like Mr. Weiss, who I all the respect in the world for, I'm not impressed by the form applications depicted in General Choi's books, of which I own a few volumes of his Encyclopedia. They're all punch/block type applications and they really don't address what role footwork plays in making even those simpler applications work. This is not to say that General Choi didn't know the more sophisticated plays from his study of Shotokan - he very well could have and he may even have taught them. I don't know since I wasn't his student. I do know his books don't even begin to address the topic.

What I teach in the tae kwon do school are concepts straight out of shorin-ryu karate with a few Goju ideas too. I really try to stay out of the technique pool, leaving that to the school master, but I emphasize directness instead of taking a wind-up. And I teach so-called 'classical' bunkai taught to me by my own teacher from the pinan kata, as these are the inspirations for most of the Chang Hon forms at least through 1st black belt level.

 

[terryl965]

I'm not sure what General Choi himself intended to be within his forms. When I studied Jhoon Rhee TKD, we honestly didn't do much applications training and we weren't members of the ITF so we didn't get any help from that quarter. Without meaning to upset folks like Mr. Weiss, who I all the respect in the world for, I'm not impressed by the form applications depicted in General Choi's books, of which I own a few volumes of his Encyclopedia. They're all punch/block type applications and they really don't address what role footwork plays in making even those simpler applications work. This is not to say that General Choi didn't know the more sophisticated plays from his study of Shotokan - he very well could have and he may even have taught them. I don't know since I wasn't his student. I do know his books don't even begin to address the topic.

What I teach in the tae kwon do school are concepts straight out of shorin-ryu karate with a few Goju ideas too. I really try to stay out of the technique pool, leaving that to the school master, but I emphasize directness instead of taking a wind-up. And I teach so-called 'classical' bunkai taught to me by my own teacher from the pinan kata, as these are the inspirations for most of the Chang Hon forms at least through 1st black belt level.

So you are doing a direct approach to the Bunkai of the Tuls, interesting is this your interpitation or your instructor? I am always interested in people views about the Bunkai in all forms, I remember exile and I would talk forever over the Bunkai. Hopefully we can too?

 

[Tez3]

[quote=ralphmcpherson;1247584]

how do I view olympic tkd? To be honest , I respect their skill and stamina and reflexes etc but the sport itself I just cant get into. I find it as boring as watching grass grow and it disappoints me that of all the hundreds of great strikes we are taught only a couple are on display in olympic tkd. All in all , I dont feel it is a true reflection of the art and if our martial art is to be on display for the world to see I would rather it better reflect what we actually learn to do. As far as taegek forms go , I dont like them , but I think that is only because I am set in my ways and have always done the palgwe forms. And on your last topic , I do feel that some of the animosity toward olympic sparring from other ma's and the general public stems from jelousy. Many sports have tried and failed to get olympic recognition and tkd has been made an olympic event which has helped boost the popularity of tkd and has helped financially and I think this has led to some other sports "bagging out" tkd because it was successful where others failed.

Your Quote? It wasn't me, honest!

 

[dancingalone]

Please, do answer as I'm interested in what you call the Okinawan methodology!

There are different layers to every form. The outer, visible layer is what everyone can see readily with their own eyes: the punch/block/kick movements done in a relatively robotic fashion. Many martial artists who only are taught to this level eventually get frustrated and they move onto other pursuits since they're no dummies and they can see that many of these so-called 'applications' are ridiculous and would never be useful in an physical altercation.

The Okinawan teaching methodology slowly peels at this outer veneer by showing you what the movements can really mean as well as the targets to attack if you want a lethal reaction. At times, my own teacher didn't show me a kata until I had actually learned all of the discrete motions and techniques first in isolation. This meant of course that my training much of the time involved solo and paired practice, studying perhaps what a wrestler would call a snap mare head throw. We would learn when to put our weight onto our heels or when as was more common to use the balls of the feet instead. Finally the kata was taught. No surprise that it would be very easy to learn and remember at that point since all the meaning has been unlocked for you already.

For beginners, my sensei would teach the pattern first and then the techniques. In a frank moment, he admitted to me the other approach was better for developing karate-ka, but this was a way of weeding out the non-serious in his mind.

 

[dancingalone]

So you are doing a direct approach to the Bunkai of the Tuls, interesting is this your interpitation or your instructor?

Some of each, but mostly cribbed straight from my teacher. I'm really no innovator myself, and besides my teacher cataloged over 500 applications to the Pinan kata alone, so there's plenty of material from him alone to teach. Occasionally, I will teach an added lock or pin from aikido, in lieu of a strike as I want to give the students nonlethal alternatives to practice and perhaps use some day.

And I'm always game for discussing kata and kata applications. Wish the karate forum on MT was more active...

 

[terryl965]

Some of each, but mostly cribbed straight from my teacher. I'm really no innovator myself, and besides my teacher cataloged over 500 applications to the Pinan kata alone, so there's plenty of material from him alone to teach. Occasionally, I will teach an added lock or pin from aikido, in lieu of a strike as I want to give the students nonlethal alternatives to practice and perhaps use some day.

And I'm always game for discussing kata and kata applications. Wish the karate forum on MT was more active...

Does your instructor have all these application down on paper and if so would he be willing to share his thoughts with people not from his school?

 

[dancingalone]

Does your instructor have all these application down on paper and if so would he be willing to share his thoughts with people not from his school?

He's old school. I wanted to co-write and publish a bunkai book using his material, but he said no. He's getting on in years though and I hope he will change his mind some day.

It took a long of arm-twisting to get his blessing to teach kobudo and form theory outside of my own dojo, but he eventually acquiesced.

To be honest though, if you choose to cross train in hapkido or jujutsu or aikido or even wrestling, you will pick up much of the missing bits and you'll readily be able to break down a form. Perhaps it won't be 'classical' but it'll be just as effective. By the way, I mean you figuratively as you likely know much of this already, Terry.

 

[terryl965]

He's old school. I wanted to co-write and publish a bunkai book using his material, but he said no. He's getting on in years though and I hope he will change his mind some day.

It took a long of arm-twisting to get his blessing to teach kobudo and form theory outside of my own dojo, but he eventually acquiesced.

So then are you willing to share your thoughts and ideal of techs?