Karate Connections

[paul hutterer]

Originally posted by Kirk
Do you transition from a right neutral bow to a right forward bow
while executing a punch?

You change to a lunge stance from a neutral bow when punching with your back arm . This is so you can gain valuable distance with your back arm and generate power from the rotation of your body. All without having to step drag closer to your attacker. The lunge stance could possibly look similar to a forward bow if not done correctly. This could be where someone could be thinking that we transition from a neutral bow to a forward bow.
Full salute Paul
Unlock the power that is YOU!!!!

 

[Kirk]

Paul,
Often I type the way I talk. It's rare in my experiences for people
to misinterpret me when I talk, but it happens OFTEN when I
type.

Like I said, I looked into this system, and still considering it, and
I have nothing bad to say about it at all. In my school, if you're
in a right neutral bow, and execute a left straight punch, we
transition from a rt neutral bow into a right forward bow. I'm told
that it's the torquing power principle. When we do stance work
in school, in the stance set I learned, and while executing a
punch as I described, while transitioning from a right neutral bow
into a forward bow, we move only the back foot (on the
ball of the foot), and boom, you're in a forward bow.

On the IKCA orange belt tape, while transitioning from a neutral
bow, into a forward bow ... all persons on the tape moved both
feet, on the balls of each foot.

The reverse is true as well, while transitioning from a forward
bow, back into a neutral bow, the IKCA moves on the balls of
both feet.

I'm not saying either way is better, but I do have my own
preference. And I don't see an answer for myself, in pursuing
both arts, as much as I'd like to.

 

[WilliamTLear]

Let me first say that I have seen one very good IKCA practitioner, and he doesn't move both feet when executing his forward bow, and yes... WARRIOR SAGE has excellent basics. I love training with him, mainly because he is one hell of a nice guy.

I don't know how the IKCA teaches the forward bow, but I do know how the forward bow is taught in the Pasadena Studio, Frank Trejo's Garage, Larry Tatum's Studio, Bryan Hawkins' Studio, the infinite insights, and the sophisticated basics videos (both of which were produced by Mr. Parker).

The forward bow, when executed as demonstrated by Mr. Parker in his American Kenpo System is effective, stable, and powerful. Let me first explain the mechanics involved in it's execution.

1. From your neutral bow, assuming that you are doing it correctly, you turn your back foot (and only your back foot) so that your toes are facing 12:00, and straighten your back leg (locking it out at the knee).

2. Maintain the position of your front foot so that your front toes are at a 45 degree angle to your center line, and shift your weight so that 60% of your weight is on your lead leg and 40% of your weight is on the back one.

There are a couple of advantages to maintaining the position of your lead leg. The first benefit is an automatic positional check. Your front knee is covering your groin against an incidental strike from your attacker's lead leg. Second, it offers lateral stability. Even though it is temporary, and a minor difference at best... every little bit counts in a fight (Why wouldn't you want to maximize the effectiveness of your stance?) The third benefit is that it limits the rotation of your hips and keeps a practitioner from over rotating while executing this stance. Over rotation causes several things to happen, including loss of power, loss of stability, and loss of correct body alignment (all of which decrease the effectiveness of this stance in a fight).

These are my views, although shared by many... I hope it helps to clarify my position a little bit.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
Moving the front foot when transitioning into a forward bow also destroys the stability of your stance.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS

Yeah what he said:iws: ...:rofl:

Moving the front foot removes your bracing angle.

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
Yeah what he said:iws: ...:rofl:

Moving the front foot removes your bracing angle.

(In my best godfather impersonation) You know... :shrug: I'll take that as a compliment, but you call me stupid one more time, and you'll be taken the dirt nap. :moon:

Ha Ha Ha,
Billy Lear, UKS :rofl:

 

[paul hutterer]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
Let me first say that I have seen one very good IKCA practitioner, and he doesn't move both feet when executing his forward bow, and yes... WARRIOR SAGE has excellent basics. I love training with him, mainly because he is one hell of a nice guy.

I don't know how the IKCA teaches the forward bow, but I do know how the forward bow is taught in the Pasadena Studio, Frank Trejo's Garage, Larry Tatum's Studio, Bryan Hawkins' Studio, the infinite insights, and the sophisticated basics videos (both of which were produced by Mr. Parker).

The forward bow, when executed as demonstrated by Mr. Parker in his American Kenpo System is effective, stable, and powerful. Let me first explain the mechanics involved in it's execution.

1. From your neutral bow, assuming that you are doing it correctly, you turn your back foot (and only your back foot) so that your toes are facing 12:00, and straighten your back leg (locking it out at the knee).

2. Maintain the position of your front foot so that your front toes are at a 45 degree angle to your center line, and shift your weight so that 60% of your weight is on your lead leg and 40% of your weight is on the back one.

There are a couple of advantages to maintaining the position of your lead leg. The first benefit is an automatic positional check. Your front knee is covering your groin against an incidental strike from your attacker's lead leg. Second, it offers lateral stability. Even though it is temporary, and a minor difference at best... every little bit counts in a fight (Why wouldn't you want to maximize the effectiveness of your stance?) The third benefit is that it limits the rotation of your hips and keeps a practitioner from over rotating while executing this stance. Over rotation causes several things to happen, including loss of power, loss of stability, and loss of correct body alignment (all of which decrease the effectiveness of this stance in a fight).

These are my views, although shared by many... I hope it helps to clarify my position a little bit.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:

That is exactly the way we do a forward bow except for the front foot. The reason we pivot the front foot is so it is out of the way for a rear leg ball kick. If your front foot is at a 45 it would be very difficult to do a ball kick off of a forward bow without pivoting your front foot .
Full salute Paul
Attitude is everything!!!!!

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by paul hutterer
That is exactly the way we do a forward bow except for the front foot. The reason we pivot the front foot is so it is out of the way for a rear leg ball kick. If your front foot is at a 45 it would be very difficult to do a ball kick off of a forward bow without pivoting your front foot .
Full salute Paul
Attitude is everything!!!!!

thank you as well for your response- i am of the experience and opinion that the forward bow with the front foot turn turned straight like the rear foot, is a poor stance that lacks stability and reduces greatly the effectiveness of any tek it's used in (the various specific reasons already expressed by a few others here).

i've never known pivoting the front foot when executing the rear front kick to be a problem.

but that's just me i guess


peace:asian:


Jaz K.

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by jazkiljok
thank you as well for your response- i am of the experience and opinion that the forward bow with the front foot turn turned straight like the rear foot, is a poor stance that lacks stability and reduces greatly the effectiveness of any tek it's used in (the various specific reasons already expressed by a few others here).

i've never known pivoting the front foot when executing the rear front kick to be a problem.

but that's just me i guess


peace:asian:


Jaz K.

There are exceptions to the rule... and I don't have a problem with turning the front foot out when executing a kick with the rear leg either. I'm with you Jaz.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
There are exceptions to the rule... and I don't have a problem with turning the front foot out when executing a kick with the rear leg either. I'm with you Jaz.

I'm with you guys. But if you're doing a rear leg kick, then it's not a forward bow anymore, just my opinion.

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
I'm with you guys. But if you're doing a rear leg kick, then it's not a forward bow anymore, just my opinion.

He's talking about the very transitional preperatory stance just before the kick.

Take Care,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:

 

[bdparsons]

On the IKCA website there is an article written by Chuck Sullivan which addresses the very topic being discussed here. To hear the rationale straight from the source here's how to get to the article:

Go to www.karateconnection.com

Click on the link "Articles" on the left hand menu

Click on the "The Fist"

The first part of the article discusses why we punch the way we do; the second part discusses the forward bow/lunge stance. Pay particular attention to GM Sullivan's closing remarks in the article. Enjoy.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

 

[bdparsons]

Respects,
Bill Parsons

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by bdparsons
Respects,
Bill Parsons

I only have one observation at this time... I can't seem to get the file open, and I do have acrobat reader installed on my PC. Is there anyway you could post the information here?

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:

 

[bdparsons]

Don't know why it isn't opening for you. Do you have the latest version of the free Acrobat reader? If so, I'll have to come up with plan B.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

 

[WilliamTLear]

I have the latest version... I still can't figure out why it won't open for me. Oh well...

Sincerely,
Billy Lear, UKS :asian:

 

[bdparsons]

it won't open for you. I assume you have a high-speed connection, but if you don't the newsletters are only 1-1.5 MB, so with dial up sometimes they can take awhile. The files seem to open OK for everyone else I've talked to. ???

Email me and maybe I can send the pdf or doc file to you as an attatchment. Hope your training is going well.

Respects,
Bill Parsons

 

[Blindside]

In that article on The Fist, it mentions that Mr. Sullivan saw that type of fist from a student of another martial art. The only other art that focuses on that fist (that I know of) is Isshin-ryu, enough so that their system patch is shaped like a vertical fist, some even have the thumb indent.

Just a thought,

Lamont

 

[Samurai]

The only other art that focuses on that fist (that I know of) is Isshin-ryu, enough so that their system patch is shaped like a vertical fist

Other arts use this fist method. Jeet Kune Do, and Wing Chun are two that come to mind off the top of my head.

George Dillman and the Dillman Karate International use a 3/4 turn and the thumb is over the first finger.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

 

[Jay Bell]

Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu also use this fist...in a different way, but it's there

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by paul hutterer

When going from one stance to another we always pivot on the balls of our feet never our heels.

finally got that IKCA pdf open-- please then explain this

"Unfortunately, the act of pivoting on
the balls of the feet actually takes your heels
away from the action, and in doing so brings
your torso no closer to the intended target. If
anything you loose an inch or so. I’ll readily
concede, it isn’t very much, but every inch makes a difference and even as small amount as it
is, it’s unacceptable. If you are punching north, your body shouldn’t be moving south.
Everything should be moving in the same direction. ALL of your energy should be traveling in
concentric lines, toward the
target."

it seems clear that this means Mr. Sullivan OBJECTS to rotating on the balls of your feet to pivot into an Forward Bow-- or perhaps this means something else... he doesn't seem to offer an explanation of how to rotate from one stance to the other-- we're left with a final image but no "how to get there" explanation.

any chance of clarification?

thanks:asian: