Kanryo Higaonna naha-te

[hoshin1600]

is anyone aware if there is a karate lineage of Higaonna that by passes Miyagi? Chojun Miyagi made several changes to all the kata and i am curious about the original Chinese versions, as they were taught to Kanryo Higaonna.

 

[JR 137]

Kenwa Mabuni of Shito-Ryu was also his student. Mabuni was also Anko Itosu's student, so Mabuni's kata might not exactly mirror Higaonna's kata.

Miyagi was also known to change kata/tailor it to the individual in his earlier years, so seeing a Miyagi descendant do a Higaonna kata may or may not be what Higaonna taught. Goju Ryu schools do some kata differently, depending on how the head of the branch was taught by Miyagi.

I guess YouTube would've been great back then.

 

[dancingalone]

I've never seen it live, but you can look up Tōu'on-ryū. This is Higaonna's karate as passed through his student Kyoda without the changes introduced by Miyagi Chojun.

I've read accounts that Miyagi's senior students asked Kyoda to take over leadership of Goju-ryu when Miyagi passed, but his condition was that Goju-ryu be renamed to honor Higaonna (hence Kyoda's later usage of the Tou'on Ryu name). Miyagi's students could not accept this condition and thus Kyoda never became involved in what we know as Goju-ryu today.

 

[greytowhite]

 

[hoshin1600]

i have met Liu Chang ,, what is the relevance to goju

 

[greytowhite]

i have met Liu Chang ,, what is the relevance to goju

You asked for the original Chinese forms. I think it was Morio Higaonna who found records linking the development of Goju-ryu to the Liu family.

 

[hoshin1600]

You asked for the original Chinese forms. I think it was Morio Higaonna who found records linking the development of Goju-ryu to the Liu family.

I was looking for the original version of the forms we all know and love as goju ryu. Not a historical cousin of the art.
But to your post..Goju, Uechi and Ryuei ryu's are not descendants of feeding crane kung fu. The closest they get is shared video production. Feeding crane was part of a Tsunami production video series along with Morio Higaonna and Shinyu Gushi.

 

[VPT]

I don't think this is thread necromancy since it's still on the first page...

To'on-ryu is very closed club. They don't put up any videos of themselves or neither allow them to be put up by others. I think they have only one dojo even in Okinawa, and outside of it only Mario McKenna teaches it. If I remember correctly, he's somewhere in Canada...

However, I've seen their kata list somewhere. It's neat and short enough to remember in its entirety: Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru, Suparimpei, Jion (from some Shorin-ryu fella) and Neipai (from Go Kenki).

Feeding crane, though, does not seem to have any connection to karate. The mainland Chinese lineage seems to be centered around the city of Putian, which is pretty far from Fuzhou, where the Okinawan expat community in China was centered. All "genetic" comparison provide zero evidencesupport for any possible connection, as well.

 

[hoshin1600]

Feeding crane, though, does not seem to have any connection to karate.

i met and worked a bit with Liu Chang. i really like what he does but its not related to karate. the other possible mistaken link to Goju- ryu is that he has been accompanied by Kimo Wall when Liu was touring around.

 

[hoshin1600]

To'on-ryu is very closed club. They don't put up any videos of themselves or neither allow them to be put up by others

this always makes me raise an eye brow. Ryuei- ryu was the same way for quite some time. it was almost impossible to get a video of their Sanchin. Ryuei-ryu says they were the first Naha- te on the island and that it is directly from Ru Ruko. i will reserve my opinion on this claim and the system.

 

[VPT]

this always makes me raise an eye brow. Ryuei- ryu was the same way for quite some time. it was almost impossible to get a video of their Sanchin. Ryuei-ryu says they were the first Naha- te on the island and that it is directly from Ru Ruko. i will reserve my opinion on this claim and the system.

They don't show their Suparimpei either. Also, as with To'on-ryu, Ryuei-ryu has borrowed certain forms, Kururunfa at least comes to mind.

I don't doubt the claim that the oldest Nakaima was trained by Ru Ru Ko since we don't know anything about his identity.
However, the "Ryu" in "Ryuei" is written with the kanji of surname Liu, 刘/劉. They have at least a surname.

 

[hoshin1600]

Tsuguo Sakumoto is the most visible Ryuei-ryu practitioner. i will admit he and his students have an incredibly crisp and defined kata. its really great. they do say their kata were changed and modified for current competition. i wish i could see the unadulterated version. my personal interest is in the sanchin and seisan comparisons between these styles. i was hoping to do some comparative studies along with the Chinese versions to get a historical view on how these forms would have been preformed in the past in hopes of gaining some depth of knowledge as well as find some historical links. what i have seen of Ryuei- ryu has not been helpful in this regard anyway.

 

[VPT]

it was almost impossible to get a video of their Sanchin.

Waaait a second, you said "was". Do you mean there is one somewhere around?

Tsuguo Sakumoto is the most visible Ryuei-ryu practitioner. i will admit he and his students have an incredibly crisp and defined kata. its really great. they do say their kata were changed and modified for current competition. i wish i could see the unadulterated version. my personal interest is in the sanchin and seisan comparisons between these styles. i was hoping to do some comparative studies along with the Chinese versions to get a historical view on how these forms would have been preformed in the past in hopes of gaining some depth of knowledge as well as find some historical links. what i have seen of Ryuei- ryu has not been helpful in this regard anyway.

As long as you don't get admission to talk with the Nakaima family in person, the chances of finding actually valuable nuggets are slim.

I think there was an article or something about the To'on-ryu Seisan. Have you read it? I can see if I can dig that one up.

 

[hoshin1600]

Waaait a second, you said "was". Do you mean there is one somewhere around?

Yes I did find one of Sakamoto doing sanchin. It's identical to Goju ryu.
Things that make you go ... hummmm???

 

[JR 137]

Yes I did find one of Sakamoto doing sanchin. It's identical to Goju ryu.
Things that make you go ... hummmm???

I think there's 2 or 3 different ways to do Sanchin in Goju Ryu, depending on which of Miyagi's students' subsequent lineage one is under. I know there's Sanchin with and without turns. I want to say there's one more variation but I'm not sure what it is; possibly open hands? Miyagi taught Sanchin differently to different students. That was according to Meitoku Yagi. He may have also taught it differently during different time periods.

Which version of Sanchin did you find?

 

[hoshin1600]

To my understanding Miyagi is credited to changing sanchin by closing the fists, emphasizing the dynamic tension, removing the 3 step forward & turn pattern and replacing it with backwards steps, changing the breathing from quick full exhalations to the long exhalation with the quick "ka" at the end (which i refer to as the cat choking up a fur ball). there are other mannerisms that are somewhat unique to Goju-Ryu, and the clip i saw of Ryuei- ryu had all of these. it was an exact match to the Goju sanchin. closed fists , back stepping, hard tension and the fur ball.

 

[JR 137]

Gotcha. The 2 Miyagi variations I know of are with and without turns. I think the turns are far more common in Yamaguchi's Goju-Kai lineage than most other Miyagi's lineages, but I've seen a few others do it too to know it wasn't just Yamaguchi adding turns.

 

[punisher73]

this always makes me raise an eye brow. Ryuei- ryu was the same way for quite some time. it was almost impossible to get a video of their Sanchin. Ryuei-ryu says they were the first Naha- te on the island and that it is directly from Ru Ruko. i will reserve my opinion on this claim and the system.

I understand that as well when it comes to "secret styles". But, in this case it is not so much secret as very small. There is lots of historical data and proof of Miyagi and Kyoda studying together. Morio McKenna has written a few articles about To'on Ryu before for Classical Fighting Arts magazine in the past.

Here is one of the picture with Miyagi and Kyoda Juhatsu together.

 

[hoshin1600]

I understand that as well when it comes to "secret styles". But, in this case it is not so much secret as very small. There is lots of historical data and proof of Miyagi and Kyoda studying together. Morio McKenna has written a few articles about To'on Ryu before for Classical Fighting Arts magazine in the past.

Here is one of the picture with Miyagi and Kyoda Juhatsu together.

i had no question about the authenticity of Kyoda Juhatsu. i just wonder why they wouldnt allow videos.

 

[punisher73]

i had no question about the authenticity of Kyoda Juhatsu. i just wonder why they wouldnt allow videos.

I remember talking/corresponding with Mr. McKenna and it was because it is very traditional and want it only passed on teacher to student. There was also the issue, if I remember correctly, of people claiming to teach it and just copying the videos. Much of what the differences are are "internal" mechanics of what they are trying to accomplish.

I think that it is very difficult for western thinking to allow something to die off instead of putting it on video and preserving it. I know this is a problem with many traditional arts when they are very small.