Kajukenbo / Kosho Ryu Kenpo

[John Bishop]

Master Bishop,

Who is kicking Master Forbach in the picture?

Sijo Emperado

 

[Danjo]

Basically, they wanted to in$ert a little my$tery so it was harder to gue$$ what you were learning next to encourage you not to wait to te$t.

Also they could tell 'who was whose' by which ones you knew. The various splinters have changed the order many times.

Matt

Well, I had noticed that every instructor seemed to do them differently. In fact, here's a fun one. When I was testing for blue belt, it was with a man named Vince Carter at USSD. He was a "Master" etc. anyways, the USSD has all of their techniques on video tape narrated by Mattera. Well, Carter was the one that performed the kata required for blue belt ( I utterly forget which one now) However, when we got there to test, we all performed the kata the way we had learned it. Then, Master Carter said, "Wait, hold on! You guys are doing it the way I did it in the video, but it's all wrong. I don't know what I was doing when I did it that way. I don't do that kata that way. Here's the right way to do it." Well, we were a bit confused and when I got back to my school I went to my instructor and asked her what the hell? She said, "Oh, Master Black changed it a few months ago and now the tapes are all wrong." How's that one?

 

[Hand Sword]

:rofl:

 

[Matt]

Well, I had noticed that every instructor seemed to do them differently. In fact, here's a fun one. When I was testing for blue belt, it was with a man named Vince Carter at USSD. He was a "Master" etc. anyways, the USSD has all of their techniques on video tape narrated by Mattera. Well, Carter was the one that performed the kata required for blue belt ( I utterly forget which one now) However, when we got there to test, we all performed the kata the way we had learned it. Then, Master Carter said, "Wait, hold on! You guys are doing it the way I did it in the video, but it's all wrong. I don't know what I was doing when I did it that way. I don't do that kata that way. Here's the right way to do it." Well, we were a bit confused and when I got back to my school I went to my instructor and asked her what the hell? She said, "Oh, Master Black changed it a few months ago and now the tapes are all wrong." How's that one?

I've watched those tapes (picked them up on eBay), and his assessment of his performance is correct, he did them poorly(but not Nebraska poorly). Strangely enough you would think Charlie Mattera would have noticed seeing as he narrated the tapes. By the end of the tape, I was ready to jump off a cliff if I heard "prairie block" one more time.

I do have to say, I'm glad you've found Mr. Bishop's school. I know the comparison is making SKK look pretty poor at this point, but let's just say not every SKK / Karazenpo school is like a West Coast USSD. I was in an East Coast USSD for a while (my instructor left Villari's with Demasco) and we managed to use enough contact that I had my ribs cracked a couple times. However, they may have toned down, or Masters Self Defense Centers may have toned up, as when I went back to visit a couple years later, I was invited to sit in on class and spar, and his blackbelts were uncomfortable with what we called 'light contact.'

I guess you can't go home again.

Matt

 

[Danjo]

I've watched those tapes (picked them up on eBay), and his assessment of his performance is correct, he did them poorly(but not Nebraska poorly). Strangely enough you would think Charlie Mattera would have noticed seeing as he narrated the tapes. By the end of the tape, I was ready to jump off a cliff if I heard "prairie block" one more time.

I do have to say, I'm glad you've found Mr. Bishop's school. I know the comparison is making SKK look pretty poor at this point, but let's just say not every SKK / Karazenpo school is like a West Coast USSD. I was in an East Coast USSD for a while (my instructor left Villari's with Demasco) and we managed to use enough contact that I had my ribs cracked a couple times. However, they may have toned down, or Masters Self Defense Centers may have toned up, as when I went back to visit a couple years later, I was invited to sit in on class and spar, and his blackbelts were uncomfortable with what we called 'light contact.'

I guess you can't go home again.

Matt

Well, I would never say it was below Omaha quality.

 

[DavidCC]

I guarantee you there are more over-ranked talentless hacks in New England and California than there are in Nebraska.

At least Matt had the guts to back up his cheap shots with video of himself... something Dan is afraid to do despite his penchant for criticizing and acting superior to everyone and everything.

-D

 

[Lisa]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.


Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator

 

[Matt]

I guarantee you there are more over-ranked talentless hacks in New England and California than there are in Nebraska.

I would have to say you are correct, sir. However, that is merely a question of scale. I can't swing a dead cat without hitting a 8th dan or above in Massachusetts - we're just overrun with kempo. On the other hand, the percentage of over-ranked talentless hacks is skewed high in your neck of the woods to (by my guess) 50% at least due to the lack of black belts that aren't my specific favorite gold plated tenth dan.

At least Matt had the guts to back up his cheap shots with video of himself... something Dan is afraid to do despite his penchant for criticizing and acting superior to everyone and everything.

-D

Thanks, I think. :idunno:

Although I prefer to think of it as educated criticism with a heaping side of sarcasm.

Matt

 

[Danjo]

At least Matt had the guts to back up his cheap shots with video of himself... something Dan is afraid to do despite his penchant for criticizing and acting superior to everyone and everything.
-D

Well, David, I sent the tape today. I don't know what happened to my first one in the move and all, but hopefully you'll be able to rest a bit easier now.

Anyways, it probably doesn't look as good as Matt, but it might look a wee bit better than some 10th degrees we all know. Also, if you do post it on Youtube or wherever, please post the whole thing. It's only about 7 or 8 minutes long and I demonstrate what I thought was wrong with Geary's and Steiner's kata on it also. I don't expect anyone to "Ooooh and Aaaah" over it, but I don't want it to be out of context either.

 

[Ray]

I can't swing a dead cat without hitting a 8th dan or above in Massachusetts

You must be swinging pretty awesome with that dead cat of yours.

 

[Matt]

You must be swinging pretty awesome with that dead cat of yours.

Well, I had some FMA training too. You'd think being 8th degrees they would dodge or at least block. Actually, some do evade - those are the good ones.

Matt

 

[DavidCC]

Well, I had some FMA training too.
Matt

now THATs funny.

 

[Gentle Fist]

DavidCC,

I noticed in the video of Steiner and Prof. Rash doing forms, that Stenier does Pinan #3 from the NCK system. Do you guys have NCK forms in CNG Shaolin Kempo? Where did CNG learn these forms from? According to the NCK guys Geary got an Honorary Shodan in American Kenpo from Prof. Cerio, not in NCK. With this being said Prof. Cerio either trained a person in generic Kenpo or in his own system, never both, except for some special individuals.

 

[Danjo]

DavidCC,

I noticed in the video of Steiner and Prof. Rash doing forms, that Stenier does Pinan #3 from the NCK system. Do you guys have NCK forms in CNG Shaolin Kempo? Where did CNG learn these forms from? According to the NCK guys Geary got an Honorary Shodan in American Kenpo from Prof. Cerio, not in NCK. With this being said Prof. Cerio either trained a person in generic Kenpo or in his own system, never both, except for some special individuals.

They're the same forms in SKK which was from Fred Villari who was a black Belt under Nick Cerio.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Right, but I thought the NCK Pinan Series came after 1974, which means Villari was already on his own. Just an observation.

 

[Matt]

Right, but I thought the NCK Pinan Series came after 1974, which means Villari was already on his own. Just an observation.

I went to watch the clip last night and I saw the Fred Villari pinan 1 and the Fred Villari pinan 2, which Steiner's teacher probably learned during his brief USSD career. Is that the right clip? I do have to say that Steiner looked better than CNG, but there were some weird body mechanics going on. It may be that he was trying too hard to impress the guests, but he was leaning in sideways to the windup for his strikes which misaligned his spine in a funny way.

 

[Matt]

DavidCC,

I noticed in the video of Steiner and Prof. Rash doing forms, that Stenier does Pinan #3 from the NCK system. Do you guys have NCK forms in CNG Shaolin Kempo? Where did CNG learn these forms from? According to the NCK guys Geary got an Honorary Shodan in American Kenpo from Prof. Cerio, not in NCK. With this being said Prof. Cerio either trained a person in generic Kenpo or in his own system, never both, except for some special individuals.

Sorry, I didn't think to check until it was too late. In the Villari lineages, the Pinan #2 looks almost exactly like the NCK pinan #3 with small variations like the open hand blocks in the beginning of NCK pinan #3. As far as I know, he taught pinan #2 (like villari uses) up until he revamped the curriculum and created Nick Cerio's Kenpo. Prior to that he taught pretty much verbatim what SGM Pesare taught, and because Villari left prior to the formation of Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Villari's material below black belt actually has a pretty heavy overlap with SGM Pesare's material.

So it pretty much went like this:

SGM Pesare--> 1-4 Kata (he called them pinions) from Sijo Gascon's Karazenpo plus 5-7 that he created. He also claims to have brought in the form that is called 'statue of the crane' (formerly Rohai, or as he asserts, Nohai).

Professor Cerio--> Initially, taught what SGM Pesare taught, and then introduced the 'pinans' which were actually Taikyoku Shodan (instead of pinan shodan) and a form inserted in the place of pinan nidan that he created, most likely after his visits to Professor Chow and Professor Chun as it resembles very much one of theirs. 3-5 pinan were very similar to the basic karate pinans. Honsuki was added at this point. Villari was trained during these years.

After 1974, when he created Nick Cerio's Kenpo, many of the numbered katas were revamped. 2 kata became circle of the leopard, Circle of the tiger was made up from a combination of the concepts in the other forms, Circle of the panther was based on SGM Pesare's 7 pinion / kata, and so on, so that things were very different. He apparently inserted a form before the previous #2 pinan bumping that one up to #3. The former #3 pinan, became one of the 'cat' forms. Really a lot of changes.

I hope that didn't make things more confusing.

Matt

 

[Gentle Fist]

I went to watch the clip last night and I saw the Fred Villari pinan 1 and the Fred Villari pinan 2, which Steiner's teacher probably learned during his brief USSD career. Is that the right clip? I do have to say that Steiner looked better than CNG, but there were some weird body mechanics going on. It may be that he was trying too hard to impress the guests, but he was leaning in sideways to the windup for his strikes which misaligned his spine in a funny way.

I noticed the same thing. Didn't resemble a Godan in any Kenpo system that I know.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Sorry, I didn't think to check until it was too late. In the Villari lineages, the Pinan #2 looks almost exactly like the NCK pinan #3 with small variations like the open hand blocks in the beginning of NCK pinan #3. As far as I know, he taught pinan #2 (like villari uses) up until he revamped the curriculum and created Nick Cerio's Kenpo. Prior to that he taught pretty much verbatim what SGM Pesare taught, and because Villari left prior to the formation of Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Villari's material below black belt actually has a pretty heavy overlap with SGM Pesare's material.

So it pretty much went like this:

SGM Pesare--> 1-4 Kata (he called them pinions) from Sijo Gascon's Karazenpo plus 5-7 that he created. He also claims to have brought in the form that is called 'statue of the crane' (formerly Rohai, or as he asserts, Nohai).

Professor Cerio--> Initially, taught what SGM Pesare taught, and then introduced the 'pinans' which were actually Taikyoku Shodan (instead of pinan shodan) and a form inserted in the place of pinan nidan that he created, most likely after his visits to Professor Chow and Professor Chun as it resembles very much one of theirs. 3-5 pinan were very similar to the basic karate pinans. Honsuki was added at this point. Villari was trained during these years.

After 1974, when he created Nick Cerio's Kenpo, many of the numbered katas were revamped. 2 kata became circle of the leopard, Circle of the tiger was made up from a combination of the concepts in the other forms, Circle of the panther was based on SGM Pesare's 7 pinion / kata, and so on, so that things were very different. He apparently inserted a form before the previous #2 pinan bumping that one up to #3. The former #3 pinan, became one of the 'cat' forms. Really a lot of changes.

I hope that didn't make things more confusing.

Matt

Makes perfect sense, thank you once again.

 

[Brother John]

I really liked the video, thanks for sharing.

Your Brother
John