K.i.s.s.

[Rumy73]

I'm basing this off what I've read and been told by professionals in dealing with violence - cops, corrections officers, etc. Some of these guys tell me that they no longer get such an adrenaline dump when dealing with violent situations and that they are capable of staying calm because they've been there so many times. Who am I to call them liars?

I will call BS and bravado.

 

[jks9199]

While I agree with points 1 & 3, point 2 is a stretch. We are human and when someone is trying to hurt us, it elicits primal reactions. No one gets used to being shot at, stabbed, bashed in the face, punched in the groin, et cetera, et cetera. Of course, I am not suggesting a person is incapable of training to act cool under fire or to perform in an emergency, but simple and straightforward training works the best.

Actually, you do. You still get some of the adrenaline response -- but you ride it, and you never reach as deep into it. I'm not going to look up the exact numbers -- but there's a point in the adrenaline cycle where your heart rate reaches about 120-130 bpm. You've got most of the benefits of the fight or flight response, but aren't deep into the real negatives. This is what the system is primed for; you're vision has focused, but not tunneled down too tightly, you're vasoconstricted but not so far that you're losing motor control, and so on. You're going to be faster, stronger... readier. I not so worried about the guy who ramps up, gets loud & red -- or even goes white, and keeps spiraling up. He ain't gonna be a problem as long as I realize I'm dealing with the Lizard Brain. But the guy who starts to get up there, then you see him settle, take a breath or two, and focus... He's scary, 'cuz he's learned how to ride the adrenaline cycle and use it.

Proper training helps you stay out of the black, panic zone. The more you're exposed to situations that let you convince your autonomic reflexes and subconscious that this is something you can handle, the less likely you are to panic. One of my last use of force incidents is a good example; as we're wrestling and struggling the the knucklehead, my partner and I were calm, and actually pretty much discussing options for controlling him. It sounds kind of surreal to say, and we both showed adrenal effects afterwards, and I'm not saying we're supermen or anything like that -- just that we've done it enough to be calm and professional about it.

 

[jks9199]

I'm basing this off what I've read and been told by professionals in dealing with violence - cops, corrections officers, etc. Some of these guys tell me that they no longer get such an adrenaline dump when dealing with violent situations and that they are capable of staying calm because they've been there so many times. Who am I to call them liars?

I will call BS and bravado.

As I've said... it happens. The extent varies. My first real use of force incident was responding to assist a partner who was fighting with someone. I got there, and I found myself in a nice, warm, floaty place. (That's a clue that you're in a freeze, incidentally...) If you'd asked me immediately after, I'd have told you that I looked at the situation, and moved to help cuff the guy. And I did... in slo-mo. I've since lost track of how many people I've fought and struggled with. It's pretty routine for me now -- and it doesn't work me up the same way. I don't freeze in those situations. If you put me in a different situation, yeah -- I can freeze, I can panic... just like anyone else. For example, my first time teaching as DT Instructor was to a group comprised of mostly SWAT team members. Now, I've taught MA for years. I've taught other topics and done public speaking. But I drew a blank on a technique I knew cold. Yep -- adrenaline response got me. Or -- I tested for a promotion a few years ago, and the evaluators decided to throw me a curve by changing the procedure at the last second. I drew a blank on a form that I knew pretty well. I was nervous, I hadn't worked the form as long or as much as I should have... and it got me. Again -- adrenal response.

Another example, for those who spar or fight competitively. Who actually remembers much of their first sparring match or their first fight? I know mine were each blurs. Now? Sparring doesn't ramp the adrenaline that easily; I know we're playing. I haven't fought competitively for a while, but by the time I reached my last tournament fight... Well, in one of them, I rolled in from a job interview process, threw on my uniform, and fought with about that much notice and prep.

 

[drop bear]

I'm basing this off what I've read and been told by professionals in dealing with violence - cops, corrections officers, etc. Some of these guys tell me that they no longer get such an adrenaline dump when dealing with violent situations and that they are capable of staying calm because they've been there so many times. Who am I to call them liars?

It can be different depending on the person and the situation.

You really cannot easily apply the emotional response that one person has to another.

The complexity of what you do ramps up when they are fighting back because you are forced to make constant adjustments. That is kind of what fighting is.

Simple moves are complex.

A rule of thumb is to go with what you feel comfortable with. But people have to bear in mind that in a self defence a lot of random stuff can happen.

As far as emotional training goes in a stress situation. You have to fight to win. Not fight not to loose.

 

[wingchun100]

I think simple is better because they are easier to learn. When the adrenaline gets pumping, your body won't always cooperate with you. I'll take simple and ugly over looking impressive any day. Plus it's kind of hard to be impressive looking when the other person has already knocked you out LOL


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[drop bear]

I think simple is better because they are easier to learn. When the adrenaline gets pumping, your body won't always cooperate with you. I'll take simple and ugly over looking impressive any day. Plus it's kind of hard to be impressive looking when the other person has already knocked you out LOL


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Sometimes the simple technique is not the highest percentage or the one that lands you in the best position.

The simple tackle defence.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj4HYtkih-Y

But you can wind up on your back under a guy. So maybe a more complicated defence is desirable.

I was thinking this one specifically because it rarely gets a submission if you know how to defend it.

 

[Thousand Kicks]

I think simple is better because they are easier to learn. When the adrenaline gets pumping, your body won't always cooperate with you. I'll take simple and ugly over looking impressive any day. Plus it's kind of hard to be impressive looking when the other person has already knocked you out LOL

I am not advocating showing off.

Let's take a simple example...and please let's not get into the "What if" game

Let's say you are confronted and the attacker throws a right hand haymaker punch. Maybe the simplest response (if you can't just get away) is to shell guard and throw a counter straight with your right hand. Another response might be to shell guard grab the opponent in a Thai clench (plum, I thnk), pull down and knee strike to the face.


Both responses are simple and direct. The clench is more complex than the simple punch, but it has the benefit of being a more damaging technique. As we practice techniques for defense, we should always consider what we stand to gain and lose by adding layers. The situation dictatates your response. Random guy attacks you...get away or take him out. Get into an argument with your drunken cousin at the family picnic...maybe you don't want to break his face in.

As stated before, it's not as easy as just saying pick the simplest approach and go with it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

K.I.S.S. is typically really good advice! Utilizing gross body movement and mechanics in general will go a long way in allowing you to defend yourself in a moment of violence. It has worked well for a long, long time. Ad to the fact that utilizing gross body movement and mechanics makes it easier for someone to remember and execute them once again adds to the idea of K.I.S.S. You are also in general probably going to be able to execute simple movements under duress or during an adrenaline dump. However, some times the simplest technique or movement might not be the best for the given situation and you may need a more complex movement. In real violence I have seen and utilized simple moves effectively. I have also seen and performed some more complex movement. Now I train every day with simple movement, gross body movement and mechanics and complex movement. I have also been involved (work related) in violence and most of the time it has not affected me. However, I have seen people with training freeze under an adrenaline dump as well as people with no training perform quite complex movement. I can remember one time handcuffing a shoplifter with someone who had minimal training. (couple of years of martial arts and a few defensive tactics classes) He went immediately for a more complex wrist lock and made it happen so smooth and efficient. I would say before, during and after the incident he was unaffected by adrenaline, stress, etc. So the idea of K.I.S.S. is good and utilizing gross body mechanics and movement is good as well but...... probably shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket and have other forms of movement so that you can be efficient in other ways if needed. People can do amazing things under pressure or simply amazing things with little to no care about pressure or adrenaline. People who are really well trained can do even more. Someone who trains every day will probably be able to perform more complex movement than say someone that goes to a course once a year. Of course the above all depends on their personal makeup. So if you are comparing the person that trains one eight hour course a year to someone that trains regularly every week. Most people training regularly should be able to do more under stress provided they had good training.

 

[K-man]

People who are really well trained can do even more. Someone who trains every day will probably be able to perform more complex movement than say someone that goes to a course once a year. Of course the above all depends on their personal makeup. So if you are comparing the person that trains one eight hour course a year to someone that trains regularly every week. Most people training regularly should be able to do more under stress provided they had good training.

Which brings to mind defence against knife attack. Knives are now the most common weapon on the street here. I think most would agree that trying to defend empty handed against someone skilled in using a knife is likely to end badly. To accept that you can't defend yourself against a knife, therefore it's not worth training knife defence just guarantees that outcome, and sometimes it is just not possible to get away.

We used to do knife defence training once or twice a year. It really wasn't part of a sport based system. Now we train it at least once a week. Because it is more than gross motor skill it needs to be drilled and drilled and drilled, preferably using a real knife. Regular training with good instruction at least gives you a chance to defend yourself.
:asian:

 

[wingchun100]

I am not advocating showing off.

Let's take a simple example...and please let's not get into the "What if" game

Let's say you are confronted and the attacker throws a right hand haymaker punch. Maybe the simplest response (if you can't just get away) is to shell guard and throw a counter straight with your right hand. Another response might be to shell guard grab the opponent in a Thai clench (plum, I thnk), pull down and knee strike to the face.


Both responses are simple and direct. The clench is more complex than the simple punch, but it has the benefit of being a more damaging technique. As we practice techniques for defense, we should always consider what we stand to gain and lose by adding layers. The situation dictatates your response. Random guy attacks you...get away or take him out. Get into an argument with your drunken cousin at the family picnic...maybe you don't want to break his face in.

As stated before, it's not as easy as just saying pick the simplest approach and go with it.

I have never practiced the clinch before, but I don't live under a rock and I have seen it done. While it is more involved than a punch, it isn't as complicated as other moves. In my opinion and experience, it would still fall under the umbrella of "simple" moves.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have never practiced the clinch before, but I don't live under a rock and I have seen it done. While it is more involved than a punch, it isn't as complicated as other moves. In my opinion and experience, it would still fall under the umbrella of "simple" moves.

So "simple" means any technique you think you can perform under pressure, and "complicated" means any other.

That's one of the fundamental problems with topics like this; the definitions are too fluid and too widely varied.

The same phenomenon can be seen in other areas.
Anyone who drives faster than you is a maniac, and anyone who drives slower is an idiot.
"Kinky" is anything you're willing to do; "perverted" is anything you're not.

Which takes us back to my point - with practice, a "complicated" technique becomes a "simple" technique.

 

[wingchun100]

So "simple" means any technique you think you can perform under pressure, and "complicated" means any other.

That's one of the fundamental problems with topics like this; the definitions are too fluid and too widely varied.

The same phenomenon can be seen in other areas.
Anyone who drives faster than you is a maniac, and anyone who drives slower is an idiot.
"Kinky" is anything you're will to do; "perverted" is anything you're not.

Which takes us back to my point - with practice, a "complicated" technique becomes a "simple" technique.

Yeah, and the other problem is people who think others aren't entitled to their opinion...or that anyone whose take on something that differs from theirs is stupid.

 

[drop bear]

So "simple" means any technique you think you can perform under pressure, and "complicated" means any other.

That's one of the fundamental problems with topics like this; the definitions are too fluid and too widely varied.

The same phenomenon can be seen in other areas.
Anyone who drives faster than you is a maniac, and anyone who drives slower is an idiot.
"Kinky" is anything you're willing to do; "perverted" is anything you're not.

Which takes us back to my point - with practice, a "complicated" technique becomes a "simple" technique.

Why I tend to use the term high/ low percentage

 

[Dirty Dog]

Why I tend to use the term high/ low percentage

Which doesn't change the bottom line, which is that if a technique is "low percentage" or "complicated" all that you really know is that it means you haven't trained it enough to be able to execute it properly when under pressure.

 

[K-man]

Which doesn't change the bottom line, which is that if a technique is "low percentage" or "complicated" all that you really know is that it means you haven't trained it enough to be able to execute it properly when under pressure.

I think that the reference to gross motor skills vs fine motor skills might be the best demarcation. Most people can crash and bash under pressure but have they enough control under pressure to apply say a wrist lock? A wrist lock is quite simple but requires some dexterity.
:asian:

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think that the reference to gross motor skills vs fine motor skills might be the best demarcation. Most people can crash and bash under pressure but have they enough control under pressure to apply say a wrist lock? A wrist lock is quite simple but requires some dexterity.
:asian:

I don't disagree at all. But, as I said, the difference between being apply to apply the technique under pressure or not comes down to training. If you can't do it under pressure, you haven't trained it enough. I can use small joint manipulations and pressure points effectively under pressure. Why? Because I do it all the time, both in the dojang and in the ER. Ad it's absolutely easier to do it now than it was 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago. Practice. Train. Experience. That's all it is.
Back to the OP... I am not advocating using a 720 kick or a wrist lock as the solution to every problem. I'm just saying that if you can execute a technique in class, but not under pressure, the answer is more training, not the elimination of the technique.

 

[K-man]

I don't disagree at all. But, as I said, the difference between being apply to apply the technique under pressure or not comes down to training. If you can't do it under pressure, you haven't trained it enough. I can use small joint manipulations and pressure points effectively under pressure. Why? Because I do it all the time, both in the dojang and in the ER. Ad it's absolutely easier to do it now than it was 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago. Practice. Train. Experience. That's all it is.
Back to the OP... I am not advocating using a 720 kick or a wrist lock as the solution to every problem. I'm just saying that if you can execute a technique in class, but not under pressure, the answer is more training, not the elimination of the technique.

And I agree with your statement 100%.

 

[drop bear]

Which doesn't change the bottom line, which is that if a technique is "low percentage" or "complicated" all that you really know is that it means you haven't trained it enough to be able to execute it properly when under pressure.

Even there it is a sort of. And this is where complicated is the other guy. A jab is simple/high percentage. A jab fired at mayweather is not. Because to get that jab landing it has to be set up in a complicated manner to defeat his defence.

You are not going to expect to stand in front of a guy and nail him if he is any good.

Then there becomes this never ending amount of application making that simple technique complicated. So this idea that these moves are not complicated anyway can be a bit false.

 

[K-man]

Even there it is a sort of. And this is where complicated is the other guy. A jab is simple/high percentage. A jab fired at mayweather is not. Because to get that jab landing it has to be set up in a complicated manner to defeat his defence.

You are not going to expect to stand in front of a guy and nail him if he is any good.

Then there becomes this never ending amount of application making that simple technique complicated. So this idea that these moves are not complicated anyway can be a bit false.

So you have once again swung the discussion from Self Defence to Sport.

If you were facing Floyd Mayweather you would be a professional boxer and in the ring. We wouldn't be having this discussion because there wouldn't be the adrenaline dump causing the problem we are discussing. Your simple jab is not going to fail because of adrenalin, it will fail because your opponent is a professional fighter.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

So you have once again swung the discussion from Self Defence to Sport.

If you were facing Floyd Mayweather you would be a professional boxer and in the ring. We wouldn't be having this discussion because there wouldn't be the adrenaline dump causing the problem we are discussing. Your simple jab is not going to fail because of adrenalin, it will fail because your opponent is a professional fighter.
:asian:

And by self defence you mean drills.

You would not suffer an adrenaline dump fighting mayweather?

Street sport is a non argument in this case.