Just wondering how everyone felt about this.

[mysurvive]

It doesn't change my perception of WC, I was just wondering how everyone felt about this? I thought it was a pretty interesting read.

http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/08/31/did-ip-man-invent-the-story-of-yim-wing-chun/

 

[mook jong man]

Our Sigung Tsui Seung Tin believes that the founder was the Abbess Ng Mei , and I do too.
I have seen quite a few women Wing Chun students over the years and they really seem to be able to learn to relax and grasp the concepts a lot easier than most of the men.
Sure the men may be more aggressive , but the women will usually have a higher degree of correctness in technique and also execution of the technique will be a lot more relaxed.
Wing Chun being heavily based on the development of skill rather than relying on strength seems to be a martial art where a women can be equal to a man.
People will say , but don't all martial arts emphasise skill over strength? , and I would have to say , not quite to the obsessive degree that Wing Chun does.
In my opinion everything points towards it being designed by a woman , the compact movements of the system denote a type of feminine minimalism , that is not seen in other arts.

 

[geezer]

Interesting read. Personally I suspect that the legend of Ng Mui is quite a bit older than the author posits. Typically these stories are retold through the generations, with the essential theme remaining constant while the names and other details change. For example, folklorists have found the Swiss tale of William Tell actually has Viking roots. Same story of heroism against oppressive authority, the whole thing about the hero shooting the apple off his sons head and so on, but with different names, different culture, different country.

Similarly, I suspect that various versions of the story we've all heard about Ngt Mui and Yim Wing Chun, circulated around parts of Southern China orally for a long time, with different names and details. Eventually, sometime in the 18th or early 19th centuries this particular story became linked with the martial arts system we know as Wing Chun. Possibly during the so-called red boat period. Has anybody looked through the popular Chinese folk-opera repertoire of those times for possible sources?

Regardless, as Mook notes, the story is terrifically apt for the nature of this peculiar martial art we practice.

 

[blindsage]

Wing Chun being heavily based on the development of skill rather than relying on strength seems to be a martial art where a women can be equal to a man.
People will say , but don't all martial arts emphasise skill over strength? , and I would have to say , not quite to the obsessive degree that Wing Chun does.
In my opinion everything points towards it being designed by a woman , the compact movements of the system denote a type of feminine minimalism , that is not seen in other arts.

I'm not taking sides here, but Taiji is at least as obsessive about skill over strength, in my opinion more so, but doesn't claim to originate from a woman. I'm also not sure what "a type of feminie minimalism" means.

 

[StormShadow]

Very interesting read. Passing stories down orally are likely to lose specifics such as names while keeping the underlying objective in tact of what ever the story is trying to teach. I'm sure possibly some of this has happened in wing chun as well as other arts. Possibly what we can take from the "wing chun story" is that efficiency & skill will over come strength. Whether created by a woman or not, or fostered by a woman, all I know is, who ever created this system came up with one hell of an art.

 

[StormShadow]

And secondly ( just thought of something) , in wing chun we are defending and attacking at the same time, women are great multitaskers (hummmmm). Plus, sorry to say fellas, the ladies are smarter than us generally speaking. Just ask any married fellow's wife. lol

 

[mysurvive]

No matter who created the art, whether it be Ng Mei, Leung Jan, Leung Bilk, or Yip Man, it is an extremely efficient art. Even if Yip Man were to have created the story simply to bring popularity to the school, I wouldn't be upset because the art does what the art does. I am in no way saying I believe one way or another, I am simply saying that either way is okay with me.

 

[Danny T]

My linage is through Jiu Wan. Jiu Wan and Yip Man both trained in Futshun prior to Yip Man moving to Hong Kong. Jiu Wan continue to train becoming an instructor and opening a school in Fushun before finally moving to Hong Kong several years later after the communist took over. Jiu Wan also taught the Ng Mui - Yim Wing Chun legend prior to moving to Hong Kong.

 

[mook jong man]

I'm not taking sides here, but Taiji is at least as obsessive about skill over strength, in my opinion more so, but doesn't claim to originate from a woman. I'm also not sure what "a type of feminie minimalism" means.

As I said many martial arts believe they are in theory, but in practice they are not.
Their angles of their arms are changing all the time , using the triceps and biceps to power the movements.

In Wing Chun the angles of the arms are always maintained at a fixed angle , this is developed by the practice of chi sau.
Always keeping the arms in what we term the "optimum angle" means the bare minimum of effort is required to maintain that structure against any outside force.
These fixed structures when rotated in any direction form the shape of a rotating sphere , any force that comes into contact with that rotating sphere is turned away.

Both Sigung Tsui and my late Sifu Jim Fung did Taiji first when they were young before starting Wing Chun , Sifu said while the two arts share similar concepts the way of going about things is totally different.

I had read somewhere a long time ago , that someone witnessing Yip man fight , remarked that he fought with a kind of feminine minimalism.
I can only assume that they thought he fought like a woman , without any posturing and using short sharp movements as compared to anything they had seen before.

I don't really know why it seems to get up peoples noses that this art claims to be invented by a woman , to me it most certainly was because it is unique in it's stance , structure and ways of executing force compared to other martial arts.

It certainly doesn't seemed to have helped with the marketing aspect at all , women have never flocked to it .
You would see more women doing TKD and Taiji than you will ever see doing Wing Chun.
But the women that do take it up and stick with it become very capable fighters and in quite a few instances surpass the men.

Here's footage of one of my old female instructors , only a small woman , but super fast and immensely powerful.
When I did chi sau with her , if I closed my eyes it felt like I was in contact with someone 60 kilos heavier.

[video=youtube_share;dcx0AqADF0E]http://youtu.be/dcx0AqADF0E[/video]

 

[geezer]

No matter who created the art, whether it be Ng Mei, Leung Jan, Leung Bilk, or Yip Man, it is an extremely efficient art. Even if Yip Man were to have created the story...QUOTE]

This is the problem with Judkin's "scholarship". Certainly the version of the Ng Mui legend passed down privately in Wing Chun circles is far older than Yip Man. This is shown by the fact that variations on the same story are told by other lineages on the mainland that do not descend from Yip Man. Judkins bases his whole premise on the relatively late appearance of the fictional Ng Mui in the published story Everlasting without considering the secretive oral traditions passed down for generations in closed-door martial arts schools.

A wiser, but far more difficult and laborious way to research the origins of these stories in southern Chinese martial arts circles would be to trace bace the unwritten origin stories of the various lineages of WC and related arts to see when Ng Mui, Wing Chun, or similar personages with different names, first start to appear in systems that historically later split apart. If that split can be dated by tracing back the generations, then you can begin to get some objective idea as to the latest date at which these stories emerged. Many, including my old Sifu have done work in this area on the mainland starting back in the 1980's when many of the older masters of other WC branches were still alive. He was fortunate in that his prominance as a recognised Sifu opened many doors. A Westerner, even one who spoke Guangdongese (Cantonese), would not have been able to to access the same information.

To date, research on this subject has led to some fascinating speculation, but honestly it's hard if not impossible to arrive at any kind of absolute certainty. It's a difficult task, considering that to conduct such research would demand not only a sound foundation in the study of folklore, but also that one both be an educated native speaker of Guandongese and have connections in the martial arts community that would give access to information that would not otherwise be revealed to outsiders. If anybody knows any native Cantonese doctoral cantidates in ethnology or folklore, who are also WC masters, and who are looking for an original thesis topic, be sure and suggest this!

 

[StormShadow]

Another version of the Ng Mui story that I found that is interesting as well
http://www.windycitywingchun.com/411/wchistory.html

 

[blindsage]

I don't really know why it seems to get up peoples noses that this art claims to be invented by a woman , to me it most certainly was because it is unique in it's stance , structure and ways of executing force compared to other martial arts.

I don't have any problem with it being invented by a woman, I just don't know why it gets up so many chunners noses that the art may not come from where it claims. It's pretty well established that CMA origin myths are mostly that. Why would Wing Chun be any different?

Here's footage of one of my old female instructors , only a small woman , but super fast and immensely powerful.
When I did chi sau with her , if I closed my eyes it felt like I was in contact with someone 60 kilos heavier.

[video=youtube_share;dcx0AqADF0E]http://youtu.be/dcx0AqADF0E[/video]

She looks great, thanks for the video.

 

[geezer]

It's pretty well established that CMA origin myths are mostly that. Why would Wing Chun be any different?

It's not. The best origin myths in martial arts capture a bit of the essence or spirit of the art and communicate it in a poetic sence through a story. The story may not be factually or historically accurate, but it still is a valuable way to understand the character of the art. The Ng Mui-Wing Chun story does exactly this.

As for the age of the story? Perhaps it dates back to the time of Leung Jan in the3 mid 19th Century? Just a guess. If Leung Yee Tai is a real, historical character, and was in fact both a great WC master and a Chinese opera actor who specialized in women's roles, then perhaps he is in some way represented by the Ng Mui story? In earlier times it may have been better to claim your art descended from a legendary fighting nun than from a cross-dressing and effeminate actor. Today it wouldn't matter. Or at least I would hope not.

 

[mook jong man]

I don't have any problem with it being invented by a woman, I just don't know why it gets up so many chunners noses that the art may not come from where it claims. It's pretty well established that CMA origin myths are mostly that. Why would Wing Chun be any different?


She looks great, thanks for the video.

Well I think it may be different because Wing Chun is one of the younger systems of Kung Fu , by all accounts approximately 300 years old.
With a lot of the very old systems , they seem to have been passed on through quite a few generations.
As they pass through each generation , the origins of the art tend to become embellished or lost in the mists of time.
But Wing Chun has not gone through that many generations and has only been handed down to a few dedicated students.

According to our lineage it is

Abbess Ng Mui , taught ---> Yim Wing Chun , who taught her husband ---> Leung Bok Chau , who taught two fellows named Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bo.
Leung Yee Tai , taught ---> Leung Jan , who taught his son ---> Leung Bik and Chan Wah Shun.
Leung Bik and Chan Wah Shun , both taught ---> Yip Man.

If it wasn't the Buddist nun Ng Mui who started the ball rolling in teaching these people , then who taught them ?
Makes a lot more sense than some of the crap being bandied about , that it was a system designed to be taught to rebels to get them combat ready in a short amount of time.
If the system was that easy to master we could have all given up training years ago and spent more time at the pub.