Just some thoughts...comments?

[Autocrat]

Oops... (forget... the reason I wanted people to do this is to wee whether people react in set ways in these situations... you know, that Freeze, Fight or Flight thing! I can't help but wonder if there is a difference in response based on age or training, gender or mindset, that sort of thing!)

 

[MA-Caver]

LOL
Well done!
Whats more, it works well!

Please, for those of you that dislike the term SHEEP or such, please don't be offended, it is a term commonly used, even in the psych- and Socio- fields..... it's not a term for insult, it's a term for generalisation.

Alternatively, go for the Greek alternatives for defining people..........
Wolves.... pack instinct, seldomly loners or do things of their own accord.
Lone Wolves...... singular, seldomly follow others, can be edgy in groups.
Bear..... Seldom found to be social, yet when do so are loud, wild.
Lion..... Seldom in groups, seldom work together. When mixed, tend to be violent....
and so on.... these are still GROSS GENERALISATIONS..... yet tend not to include small farm animals tha tpeople can be offended by... almost all are predators.....
(I think it's greek... maybe roman or such! LOL)

Likely it's Orwellism as in Animal Farm... worthwhile reading btw.

 

[someguy]

I'm a sheep and I got to tell you I ain't changing. To much work to be a shepher and I don't want to be a wolf.
Wolves still follow a pack.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The 'people are sheep' line and the 'we call them sheeple' comment appear constantly in MA discussion.

It kind of misses the point. When a group of youths attacks a single male of larger build are they sheep? Hyenas? Jackals?

Some of the individuals are often just going along with the pack/herd. They are exhibiting the same group dependency as the next guy.

About three years ago on one board there was a discussion about a man who didn't get involved to help his friend in a fight. 'He was just a sheep', 'he should have learnt MAs', 'he is despicable' etc.

I replied that the same thing had happened with me, but I understood the inaction of my friend. He doesn't do MA because he is a jobbing piano player. Any finger injury would mean he'd starve for 3 months. The incident was over in 3 seconds. He wasn't a sheep. He was an artist of great quality who'd brought the joy of music to many people, especially as choir master at my local church.

Lonecoyote (worthy of the name) expressed it perfectly. Baaing in unison 'They aaaaare sheeeeep' doesn't make you any more resistant to danger. the only useful attitude is to look for the sheep inside yourself and understand it: what it is for, when it is useful, when not so, how to get around it, how to get along with it.

Creative sheep. Maybe "grass eater" would be a more politically correct term. "Wolves"...going along with the "pack"....I see a trend.

Call it what you want, but grass eating tendencies seem pretty widespread. Not that a world full of sheep is a bad thing, it's just that all the weight of all those sheep hiding behind a few sheep dogs when the wolves they never believed existed shows up at the door that's a pain in the rear. Then sheep don't argue about definitions, they just "baaaahhh" for someone to protect them. Of course, if the sheep dogs do their job right, sheep get to think philosophical thoughts about the non-existence of wolves and the real lack of need for sheep dogs. That must be why sheep get offended about being called sheep. If the wool fits.

 

[AC_Pilot]

Most people are sheep. naturally sheep don't want to be called sheep, especially when Hollywierd tells everyone they are warriors and bad asses, by proxy at the movies. But those who are not sheep can see the sheep bleat and graze, while we, the wolves (bad guys) or sheepdogs (good guys) do our thing.

2 to 3 % of American citizens who can easily obtain concealed carry permits to legally carry handguns for self defense, do so.

I suspect the number of real martial artists is at least that low, maybe lower.

Number of physically able persons who train in serious self defense/fighting arts and carry handguns on the street for defense of themselves, family and friends? Infinitesimal !

 

[loki09789]

LOL

Lets try a quick whip round..... how about every one who has been in a situation or thought one might occur, post what their reactions where ? You know, put whether you positioned yourself to cover the most approaches, moved to the neasrest exit, placed things ready to grab and use, got into a comfortable stance, lashed out when someone asked for directions, hit a granny who sneaked up behind you, froze when they smacked you in the mouth, that sort of thing?

It would just be interesting to see the results! ? !
No / Yes ?
Atleast that way we can see

With the 'average' lifestyle of most of us, the number of 'incidents' will probably be pretty low, but I see this as moments when people either 'take charge' or 'sit back and wait for instructions' from the group or an individual that has taken charge.

Examples:

1. Pregnant woman walks into a room that is limited on seating room. I will look around and see if anyone else has already made the gesture to offer their seat. If no one has, then I will. Why wait? So it doesn't turn into a contest of who gets to do the good deed, the deed is the important thing, not the doer.

2. A group of able bodied people talking while someone is struggling with a broken down car, a heavy load...what ever. Just like any situation, I would use awareness to assess the risk factor (bait, traffic, ....) and then offer help - and have done so in the past. Usually what will happen, if someone else hasn't already stepped up, is that the others will follow and add their assistance.

3. There was an incident a long time ago when a single security guard chased a suspected shop lifter across an open field into the back of a housing development through deep snow. He was alone with this guy and outsized (Bad guy looked like a short stocky lineman, guard looked like a short thin cross country runner). I followed and offered assistance. We hemmed him in until the cops came and cuffed him. No fuss no muss. The guard, IMO was overzealous because he put himself at letigious and physical risk by pursuing this guy off the property and getting isolated like that. But, I didn't feel right leaving him alone because of his poor judgement.

I know these aren't dramatic or 'self defense' situations but they are everyday moments when people can take the initiative/read a situation and break the cycle of 'sheepishness.' Heck, even just getting on the Cell phone and calling in to 911 what you saw is stepping out of the pasture IMO.

 

[AC_Pilot]

Loki,

That's wierd, I have done all three of these things myself. Some of us just cannot stand by when something clear and stark must be done to help. It is imperative to assess the situation in advance, and have excellent judgement, so as not to be baited as you state, or to intervene on the wrong side.

The flat I fixed was for two women in the open, clearly alone by the road side. No chance it was a bait and I was armed, concealed pistol.

The shoplifter was a large fast man running out of the store and the chaser was obviously a store employee, he did a great job over taking and tackling the guy but he had no cuffs and the struggle was ongoing when I got there and told the runner to stop resisting. He did when he realized two of us were there, and I had a pair of cuffs in the trunk of my car which I lent to the plainclothed security guard. We escorted the shoplifter inside and I got my cuffs back. My main concern was that the runner might have a weapon and the security guard was alone in the lot.

 

[Tgace]

With the 'average' lifestyle of most of us, the number of 'incidents' will probably be pretty low, but I see this as moments when people either 'take charge' or 'sit back and wait for instructions' from the group or an individual that has taken charge.

Examples:

1. Pregnant woman walks into a room that is limited on seating room. I will look around and see if anyone else has already made the gesture to offer their seat. If no one has, then I will. Why wait? So it doesn't turn into a contest of who gets to do the good deed, the deed is the important thing, not the doer.

2. A group of able bodied people talking while someone is struggling with a broken down car, a heavy load...what ever. Just like any situation, I would use awareness to assess the risk factor (bait, traffic, ....) and then offer help - and have done so in the past. Usually what will happen, if someone else hasn't already stepped up, is that the others will follow and add their assistance.

3. There was an incident a long time ago when a single security guard chased a suspected shop lifter across an open field into the back of a housing development through deep snow. He was alone with this guy and outsized (Bad guy looked like a short stocky lineman, guard looked like a short thin cross country runner). I followed and offered assistance. We hemmed him in until the cops came and cuffed him. No fuss no muss. The guard, IMO was overzealous because he put himself at letigious and physical risk by pursuing this guy off the property and getting isolated like that. But, I didn't feel right leaving him alone because of his poor judgement.

I know these aren't dramatic or 'self defense' situations but they are everyday moments when people can take the initiative/read a situation and break the cycle of 'sheepishness.' Heck, even just getting on the Cell phone and calling in to 911 what you saw is stepping out of the pasture IMO.

Excellent rephrasing of my exact point (how you do that? )....point is, what you are talking about is simply a conscious decision. No training required. Making that decision to ACT however obligates you to get some training so you arent more of a danger to yourself or others than you are a help.

 

[Tgace]

So does MA training have the capability to impart "mindset" on a student? In other words will MA training alone make somebody capable of defending themselves?

IMO, a person has to come to a decision within themselves that no training is going to impart. The training may alter a persons opinion of themselves and what they are capable of, but that decision is still only theirs to make.

 

[AC_Pilot]

I had no official adult martial arts training in the above events which were years ago. I did have a very eventful life and experience and my upbringing taught me to respond and to help the innocent.. it's more of a moral issue IMO,and the fact that I had confidence in my natural abilities. I am much better able to deal with something serious these days, armed or unarmed, due to training and even more experience.


But I think the reason some folks act to help is just natural good Samaritan thinking. It's something you either have or don't have, again my opinion. Fear or selfishness will cause most to walk on by, even in a clear, evident scenario.

 

[loki09789]

But I think the reason some folks act to help is just natural good Samaritan thinking. It's something you either have or don't have, again my opinion. Fear or selfishness will cause most to walk on by, even in a clear, evident scenario.

So, are MA schools and public schools wasting their time then when they include 'citizenship/self less service/community' in their list of things they try to impart on students?

I agree that there may be people more inclined to step in because of some genentic thing, but that doesn't mean that people can't develop that skill through reinforcement, nurturing and plain old 'get off your lazy butt' effort.

 

[Tgace]

Some good points Ive picked up from various sources...

1. Your mind is your greatest asset or weakness, depending on how serious you take self-defense.


2. Accept that it can happen to you and probably will sometime in your lifetime.


3. What if… What would you do? This is where you need to think about the response you will make if put in any imaginable circumstance. Then develop a plan of action for each event. It's much easier to make a wise decision when you have had time to think and prepare instead of when you are suddenly confronted without warning or planning.


4. Visualize your plan. I call this mental imagery training. It's a must if you're serious about self-defense. You visualize a perpetrator attacking you and you visualize your measured and strong response. You must be able to see yourself taking action and exerting the will to win.


5. Always follow your gut feeling. The golden rule is "If something seems wrong, it probably is."


6. Weapons are no good if you don't know how to use them confidently and effectively and a weapon is no good if you can't get your hands on it immediately.


7. Never go with an attacker to a second location. Your first priority should be to get away, no matter what you have to do.


8. Ninety percent of all criminals use some method of deception to attract their victims.


9. If an attacker has grabbed you, focus on the parts of your body that are free and the attacker's weak spots (eyes, groin, throat, little finger, etc.) and use them to get away.


10. Never pull a weapon you are not prepared to use. It could be used on you.

 

[Autocrat]

Interesting turn on it.... but I like it!

I've found that there are certain mindsets / personalities that perform certain tasks, respond in set ways to particular stimuli etc. Never thought about that occuring with MA though... maybe it's the way we are raised, the things we watch... the same things that help decide to do MA's maybe what spurs us to be helpful, chivalrus or plain friendly.....

Like the bit about assessing situations, danger etc..... I had to perform a study on assessing risk and acting on such.... I was the only one out of 320 odd test subjects that will act in any situation so long as the chances aren't 100%, be it complete success or complete failure!... (I always feel 3 to 1 or 20% chances are good... keep you thinking on your toes! LOL)... then againn, I've been hit by 5 cars, fallen from a 3rd floor window, electricuted twice, drowned once...... just lucky, or am I judging the chances rather well ? ! ? *grin*

Seriously though, it really is the mind set of the pratitioner that makes all the difference... if you have trained for years, yet aren't willing to give it a go, then you will lose / freeze / panic etc. If you are convinced you have a chance, and act on it... then you may succeed. My concern has always been neing the one to walk away... before the fight occurs, or after it, I don't care which!