Just a marketing tool?

[thetruth]

I have been out of the arts for about 6 months now and out of any DKI/KI/Dragon Society pressure point based school for about 2 years but I have been researching a bit and a few friends still train.

I believe that combative pressure points the way the DKI types (this includes KI and Dragon Society) intellectualise them was originally designed as a marketing tool to promote Dillmans videos and to have people believe that there was more to his art than others including those that actually came from Okinawa and other places even though his was made in America.

I have met a few great people recently including a direct student of Master Yagi in Goju Ryu. Master Yagi was one of Chojun Miyagi's top students. He showed me a couple of things and we talked a bit and I found that even though he didn't know all of the TCM descriptions for the pressure points when extracted from the kata exactly as they are supposed to be all of the moves utilise pressure points. I know this isn't big news as it is commen knowledge that pressure points are in kata.

My point is this: I believe that due to the ridiculous amount of intellectualisation that has been done that the techniques practised in the Dillman type arts are less likely to be performed effectively in a high stress situation. This is because of the overload of useless info that is taught when if one just follows the kata exactly the technique will work everytime. When the mind is clouded with too many things in a high stress situation it cannot possibly perform at its best.

Why do westerners need to explain everything? Do you think the TCM description of points is necessary for self defence? Why? Is it now necessary to use this method as many people have changed kata too much so that these descriptions are are needed to try and make sense of these strange altered kata? Or has these methods of explanation simply come about due to western ego via people not willing to put the hard yards in with true masters and learn an art properly?

My apologies if this is a mish mash of thoughts but I didn't want to spend too long writing it

Cheers
Sam

 

[Hand Sword]

It's ok! I think commercialization of the arts is getting to most of us here. I understand you!

 

[RBaddorf]

Since we don't know the ORIGINAL INTENT of most of the moves in the katas, we need to have the knowledge to be able to figure out what the intent might have been. You don't think of theory in a fight, you do that while analyzing the kata and building the muscle memory. You also need to know the theory if you want to be responsible and be able to fix what you did to someone. Otherwise, pretty soon you will run out of people willing to train with you.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

If you don't understand how something works, you can't rely on it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I have been out of the arts for about 6 months now and out of any DKI/KI/Dragon Society pressure point based school for about 2 years but I have been researching a bit and a few friends still train.

I believe that combative pressure points the way the DKI types (this includes KI and Dragon Society) intellectualise them was originally designed as a marketing tool to promote Dillmans videos and to have people believe that there was more to his art than others including those that actually came from Okinawa and other places even though his was made in America.

I have met a few great people recently including a direct student of Master Yagi in Goju Ryu. Master Yagi was one of Chojun Miyagi's top students. He showed me a couple of things and we talked a bit and I found that even though he didn't know all of the TCM descriptions for the pressure points when extracted from the kata exactly as they are supposed to be all of the moves utilise pressure points. I know this isn't big news as it is commen knowledge that pressure points are in kata.

My point is this: I believe that due to the ridiculous amount of intellectualisation that has been done that the techniques practised in the Dillman type arts are less likely to be performed effectively in a high stress situation. This is because of the overload of useless info that is taught when if one just follows the kata exactly the technique will work everytime. When the mind is clouded with too many things in a high stress situation it cannot possibly perform at its best.

Why do westerners need to explain everything? Do you think the TCM description of points is necessary for self defence? Why? Is it now necessary to use this method as many people have changed kata too much so that these descriptions are are needed to try and make sense of these strange altered kata? Or has these methods of explanation simply come about due to western ego via people not willing to put the hard yards in with true masters and learn an art properly?

My apologies if this is a mish mash of thoughts but I didn't want to spend too long writing it

Cheers
Sam

If Dilman misses a Mansion or yaght payment because of this post, they will find you!:soapbox:

 

[thetruth]

If you don't understand how something works, you can't rely on it.

Untrue, you don't have to know all of the damage a punch is doing inorder to know it works. The same goes with any other technique

Cheers
Sam

 

[thetruth]

If Dilman misses a Mansion or yaght payment because of this post, they will find you!:soapbox:

I am shaking right now. Scared ****less

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Untrue, you don't have to know all of the damage a punch is doing inorder to know it works. The same goes with any other technique

Cheers
Sam

If you don't know how a technique works, then if something goes wrong, you won't know how to deal with it. Its like a car breaking down. You don't need to know it works to drive it, but you do to fix it if stops working.
When it comes to striking, its especially important to know why you strike a specific area atc, because then you will know what factors affect how the technique works.

 

[exile]

Since we don't know the ORIGINAL INTENT of most of the moves in the katas, we need to have the knowledge to be able to figure out what the intent might have been. You don't think of theory in a fight, you do that while analyzing the kata and building the muscle memory. You also need to know the theory if you want to be responsible and be able to fix what you did to someone. Otherwise, pretty soon you will run out of people willing to train with you.

The point in this post and Shotgun Buddha's posts are that you have to think about the kata because they were deliberately set up to conceal their most effective applications. Itosu and Funikoshi were both candid about this. They keep telling you in their writings, don't be satisfied with the `children's applications' that we're teaching publicly---look closer for the fighting uses of these moves.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

The point in this post and Shotgun Buddha's posts are that you have to think about the kata because they were deliberately set up to conceal their most effective applications. Itosu and Funikoshi were both candid about this. They keep telling you in their writings, don't be satisfied with the `children's applications' that we're teaching publicly---look closer for the fighting uses of these moves.

I've never particularly likeed the concept of "hidden techniques", or more deadly applications hidden in kata. It always struck me as completely unneccessary when you can kill someoone by stomping on their head. Or hitting them with a lead pipe. Or if you're feeling traditional, make like our monkey ancestors and bash their head in with a rock.
Flint rocks are the manliest.

 

[exile]

I've never particularly likeed the concept of "hidden techniques", or more deadly applications hidden in kata. It always struck me as completely unneccessary when you can kill someoone by stomping on their head. Or hitting them with a lead pipe. Or if you're feeling traditional, make like our monkey ancestors and bash their head in with a rock.
Flint rocks are the manliest.

Flint is hard to find, though. How about just hunks of limestone or whatever happens to be lying around? In most cities, that would be large chunks of broken curb stone... I've noticed plenty of it lying around here in Columbus...

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Flint is hard to find, though. How about just hunks of limestone or whatever happens to be lying around? In most cities, that would be large chunks of broken curb stone... I've noticed plenty of it lying around here in Columbus...

Curb? That is such a social faux pas! When bludgeoning another primate to death, one must use only the classiest of materials! To use curb stone would be the equivalent of using a desert spoon for your soup....and then bludgeoning someone to death with it.

 

[Jamie]

And at the same time as doing that, hope you won't get put in jail for 20 years. I would do exactly the same against an aggressor too but the law just won't accept!

 

[exile]

Curb? That is such a social faux pas! When bludgeoning another primate to death, one must use only the classiest of materials! To use curb stone would be the equivalent of using a desert spoon for your soup....and then bludgeoning someone to death with it.

Yes, I see your point of course. But... function before form, eh? What if you live where there are a lot of broken-down curbs but not much volcanic rock handy (i.e., my situation)?

Actually, now I think of it, what we have in huge quantities around here are loose bricks. Brick is one of the favorite building materials in towns and cities in this neck of the woods... well, not much in the way of woods, actually... how does brick rate for primate termination purposes? And is there a distinction in classiness between house bricks on the one hand vs. garden bricks on the other?

 

[searcher]

You all need to back up or I am getting Chuck Norris to come in here. He may kill me for even saying his name. After typing it I am feeling queezy.

 

[zDom]

Yes, I see your point of course. But... function before form, eh? What if you live where there are a lot of broken-down curbs but not much volcanic rock handy (i.e., my situation)?

Actually, now I think of it, what we have in huge quantities around here are loose bricks. Brick is one of the favorite building materials in towns and cities in this neck of the woods... well, not much in the way of woods, actually... how does brick rate for primate termination purposes? And is there a distinction in classiness between house bricks on the one hand vs. garden bricks on the other?

We train hand strikes while holding concrete pavers A bit larger and heavier than standard house bricks.

Not for bashing primates, though. Just to build strength.

 

[exile]

We train hand strikes while holding concrete pavers A bit larger and heavier than standard house bricks.

Not for bashing primates, though. Just to build strength.

I see you guys go for old-fashioned strength-training techniques. But what can I do?? There just aren't any flint outcropping around here...

On a related note, I have heard that there were well-witnessed occasions when Korean martial artists demonstrated breaking techniques on mid-sized roundish river rocks... do you know about these demonstrations. I'm not making this up, I've definitely read about them somewhere and someone in some earlier thread on MT alluded to them at one point, I think... now that would impressive!

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Yes, I see your point of course. But... function before form, eh? What if you live where there are a lot of broken-down curbs but not much volcanic rock handy (i.e., my situation)?

Actually, now I think of it, what we have in huge quantities around here are loose bricks. Brick is one of the favorite building materials in towns and cities in this neck of the woods... well, not much in the way of woods, actually... how does brick rate for primate termination purposes? And is there a distinction in classiness between house bricks on the one hand vs. garden bricks on the other?

Brick is a bit of a mixed debate here. If its garden bricks, you could perhaps pretend to be a gardener for one of your social betters, and thus your actions will go completely un-noticed so long as they involve sufficient amounts of compost.
If its the classic red house brick, you can pass yourself as being one of the working class, and as such not obliged to know the social conventions of primate-smashing.
On the other hand, others feel that no true gentleman would use such subterfuge to ensure their survival, and would instead take their maiming and violation by the ape masses with a stiff upper lip.

 

[thetruth]

If you don't know how a technique works, then if something goes wrong, you won't know how to deal with it. Its like a car breaking down. You don't need to know it works to drive it, but you do to fix it if stops working.
When it comes to striking, its especially important to know why you strike a specific area atc, because then you will know what factors affect how the technique works.

For the record I am dead against the tapping of points so at the end of the day you should strike a point with full intent so if it doesn't work you have still smacked them hard enough to create the desired result anyway. As far as getting technical goes with points it is just mumbo jumbo. About as technical as you want to get is perhaps knowing that as a general rule points on the arms set up points on the head so after you block their strike smack them in the head or the side of the neck. The way the elemental theory works is logical so there is no need to get too technical or to delve too deep into why why why just practice your self defence techniques hands on and with full intent. You cannot get too exact with the whole points thing and tapping as I know 1 person who cannot get tapped out, they just don't work so I would never take that chance. You smack someone in the head hard well you know what the result will be with far more certainty. Now I'm not saying go out and fight the likes of Kimbo Slice as I would think twice about trying to run him over in my car but you get my point :asian:

Cheers
Sammy