Jumping kick issues?

[RGoodenow]

Is it normal to find myself almost unable to generate any power or keep my balance through a spinning jumping roundhouse kick?

Although i have the technique down, and i can execute it consistently every time, i cant seem to bring it through to give it the snap it really needs. Any pointers on what i can do to bring this technique up to par?

Thanks!

 

[dancingalone]

What are you comparing the level of power of your kick to? You might be disappointed if you expect a jumping spinning roundhouse kick to be as powerful as a normal, grounded roundhouse kick.

 

[StudentCarl]

Hard to tell without seeing, but my first question would be what you're doing with your shoulders and arms. A common mistake I see is arms thrown in the opposite direction of the kick, which takes power away from the hips and thus the kick. The other thing I watch for when I do it is where my front shoulder ends up--it should be rotationally in line with the hip (not following) and upright (not leaned back). If the upper body fights the hips, the kick will be weak.

Carl

 

[Stac3y]

Hm. Is this a 360 spin, or 540?

 

[ATC]

What are you comparing the level of power of your kick to? You might be disappointed if you expect a jumping spinning roundhouse kick to be as powerful as a normal, grounded roundhouse kick.

I don't know about that. When Master Suh does any jump spinning kicks they are way more powerful than any grounded technique. The amount of torque used and the way they leg just uses that torque with proper technique generates tremendous power.

Now with that said not a single person other than him in our dojang can do any of the jump spinning kicks with the same technique as him. So none of us generate anywhere near the same kind of power that he does.

I can tell you that when I hold shields or even focus targets for him all the jump spinning kicks feel like my arm is about to come off. His grounded kicks are as hard as a mule kicking but his spinning kicks are off the charts. And he says that they should be this way.

 

[zDom]

If you do a jump round kick correctly, you put your body weight into it and it is more powerful.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know about that. When Master Suh does any jump spinning kicks they are way more powerful than any grounded technique. The amount of torque used and the way they leg just uses that torque with proper technique generates tremendous power.

Now with that said not a single person other than him in our dojang can do any of the jump spinning kicks with the same technique as him. So none of us generate anywhere near the same kind of power that he does.

I can tell you that when I hold shields or even focus targets for him all the jump spinning kicks feel like my arm is about to come off. His grounded kicks are as hard as a mule kicking but his spinning kicks are off the charts. And he says that they should be this way.

Perhaps your man is the exception and he possesses perfect technique and can conserve his mass and speed such that he can deliver them as efficiently in the air as on the ground.

All I can go on is my own empirical observations over the years. Jumping kicks rarely come close to the same level of power as a grounded kick for most people. Why?

• Focus. It's quite difficult to focus all your mass into a striking point when you are adding a variable like leaping into the air also.
• Timing. Same idea as above.
• Loss of momentum. You are converting some of the mechanical energy from the legs and hips into jumping, rather than conserving it for full delivery to a target.
• Loss of stability. Striking while in the air is an inherently unstable proposition. Suppose the target moves slightly or you are off a bit. The power delivery system just isn't forgiving when you are not on the ground with the bracing action given to you.

Compound these problems by adding a SPIN on top of the JUMP and you've magnified the problem even more.

As I said though, one can mitigate these problems by having exceptional technique, but I think just from a pure physical science perspective, the jumping, spinning kicks CANNOT be as powerful as a normal, grounded kick. Any kinesiology majors out there?

 

[dancingalone]

If you do a jump round kick correctly, you put your body weight into it and it is more powerful.

Then why is it so easy to knock someone out of the air with a kicking shield when they try to kick you with a flying side kick?

 

[ATC]

Then why is it so easy to knock someone out of the air with a kicking shield when they try to kick you with a flying side kick?

Can you explain what you mean? If someone is jumping and staying tucked until the correct timing then uncoil like a snake, snapping the kick at the point of impact you will cut through any target. You accelerate the kick even faster than you are moving adding power to any power that your body is already generating.

Now if they are extended and simply flying through the air with the leg and foot out then there is no kick. You are simply jumping into the target not kicking the target at all.

It is all about correct technique with any jumping or spinning kick. They are more powerful.

 

[dancingalone]

Can you explain what you mean? If someone is jumping and staying tucked until the correct timing then uncoil like a snake, snapping the kick at the point of impact you will cut through any target. You accelerate the kick even faster than you are moving adding power to any power that your body is already generating.

Now if they are extended and simply flying through the air with the leg and foot out then there is no kick. You are simply jumping into the target not kicking the target at all.

Try it yourself. Get a kicking shield and have someone near your size as possible run and take a flying kick at your shield. Push back at him with the shield as strongly as you can in conjunction with his kick's arrival. When I have tried this experiment holding a stable stance myself, I've 'won' the exchange every time, being able to knock back the kicker, sometimes painfully so for him. You'd think the kicker would be able to crunch the shield holder, if the premise that a jumping kick is more powerful is true...

It is all about correct technique with any jumping or spinning kick. They are more powerful.

I simply don't believe this to be true. Perhaps you can address some of the issues I mentioned in #7?

 

[ATC]

Perhaps your man is the exception and he possesses perfect technique and can conserve his mass and speed such that he can deliver them as efficiently in the air as on the ground.

All I can go on is my own empirical observations over the years. Jumping kicks rarely come close to the same level of power as a grounded kick for most people. Why?

• Focus. It's quite difficult to focus all your mass into a striking point when you are adding a variable like leaping into the air also.
• Timing. Same idea as above.
• Loss of momentum. You are converting some of the mechanical energy from the legs and hips into jumping, rather than conserving it for full delivery to a target.
• Loss of stability. Striking while in the air is an inherently unstable proposition. Suppose the target moves slightly or you are off a bit. The power delivery system just isn't forgiving when you are not on the ground with the bracing action given to you.

Compound these problems by adding a SPIN on top of the JUMP and you've magnified the problem even more.

As I said though, one can mitigate these problems by having exceptional technique, but I think just from a pure physical science perspective, the jumping, spinning kicks CANNOT be as powerful as a normal, grounded kick. Any kinesiology majors out there?

After reading you other post (#10) and the one quoted above again, I think I see our disconnect. You are talking about a jump kick that is done in place and that stops at the point of impact or at the same point of impact as the grounded kick would. If that is the case then yes I agree with you.

I am talking about spinning and jump spinning kicks. These have the added momentum and go far beyond or past the target. This is what I took the OP to be asking about.

The jump side kick for instance is one where you have a running start 2 or more steps and would be moving into the target and beyond as you kick.

The jump round house is more of a spinning round house or tornado kick. (NOT 540 where you land on the same leg as you kick).

My type of jumping and spinning kicks use the body's momentum to generate even more power than the grounded kick because you are turning or moving way past the target.

Please correct me if I still have this wrong and we are talking about the same things.

 

[dancingalone]

No, I don't think we are talking about different kicks. We just have different conclusions about the potency of the same kicks. Any strike, whether a reverse punch or jumping kick, should extend past the surface as well if we are trying to damage the target.

So when I am mentioning the kicking shield experiment, I do mean the kicker is trying to blast through (extend through) the shield and thus me the holder behind the shield. What I am saying is that I've been able to push back the kicker at will even when he is trying to travel quickly through the air with an intention to punch through me with his kicking foot.

This may be one of those scientific equations where if you get perfect launching of mass and preservation of acceleration as the kicker goes into the air, the kick is indeed a powerful one. I argue that in fact the vast majority of people will never have the same effectiveness with a jumping, spinning kick because they are unable to realize that level of proficiency. They dissipate too much of their force just getting in the air and then spinning, never mind the added complications from targeting, focus and loss of support/grounding. It sounds good in the design room until we actually field test it.

Anyone ever ice skate and try one of those spin tricks where you try to travel tightly in a circle and thus go faster and faster? It's not easy to do at all.

 

[ForeverStudent]

Spinning jumping roundhouse kick (twimmio bandae dollyo chagi i think) is one very complex kick from all possible views.

My teacher have one very good answer when i ask him why i can't do something. It is: "you don't practice enough".

It's very hard technique and you probably just need to take more practice.

Me neither can't produce much power in that kick, specially compared to basic kicks front, round, side.

 

[ATC]

No, I don't think we are talking about different kicks. We just have different conclusions about the potency of the same kicks. Any strike, whether a reverse punch or jumping kick, should extend past the surface as well if we are trying to damage the target.

So when I am mentioning the kicking shield experiment, I do mean the kicker is trying to blast through (extend through) the shield and thus me the holder behind the shield. What I am saying is that I've been able to push back the kicker at will even when he is trying to travel quickly through the air with an intention to punch through me with his kicking foot.

This may be one of those scientific equations where if you get perfect launching of mass and preservation of acceleration as the kicker goes into the air, the kick is indeed a powerful one. I argue that in fact the vast majority of people will never have the same effectiveness with a jumping, spinning kick because they are unable to realize that level of proficiency. They dissipate too much of their force just getting in the air and then spinning, never mind the added complications from targeting, focus and loss of support/grounding. It sounds good in the design room until we actually field test it.

Anyone ever ice skate and try one of those spin tricks where you try to travel tightly in a circle and thus go faster and faster? It's not easy to do at all.

Well then we will have to disagree. Although not by much. You just stated that correct timing and technique is needed to get said maximum power and that many will fail to do this. As I mentioned Master Suh has this said timing and technique, plus the accuracy. Many top athletes do.

As for the jump side kick theory I would have to see it in action. If done correctly no kick should push the target but rather transfer it's energy into. Here is an example:

There is a guy that I use to train with that was 6'5" 260 or so. I would hold a shield for his back kick and he would hit it quite hard and push me back 2 or 3 steps also. I felt the kick and it hurt. Master Suh is 5'10" 140 pounds (155 when not competing), and when I hold for him I don't move at all but the impact is more cutting and hurts so much more. He once hit me so hard (holding a shield) that my teeth rattled and I tasted metal, not to mention that I just doubled over out of air. No one I have ever held for has hit as hard.

There are some top level competitors that everyone knows that can testify of how hard he hits. It is all speed, proper technique, timing, and accuracy.

Spinning and jumping kicks if done correctly should magnify the grounded kicking techniques. Done improperly you will fall and lose power as you say. Those kicks require years of practice to have maximum effectiveness.

 

[dancingalone]

Well then we will have to disagree. Although not by much. You just stated that correct timing and technique is needed to get said maximum power and that many will fail to do this. As I mentioned Master Suh has this said timing and technique, plus the accuracy. Many top athletes do.

Yep, I do think a top martial artist could indeed kick very hard while jumping and spinning. I'm not so sure however that they really are amplifications of the base techniques, nor do I necessarily believe that the same martial artist wouldn't hit as hard or harder without jumping and spinning. As I said, they smack too much of the ivory tower/perfect lab experiment to me without taking into account what happens when we do it for real. And at the risk of seeming immodest, I think I have a reasonable level of skill myself as do the people I have and do train with. I don't think the variance in my experience comes from a lack of skill or expertise.

As for the jump side kick theory I would have to see it in action. If done correctly no kick should push the target but rather transfer it's energy into. Here is an example:

There is a guy that I use to train with that was 6'5" 260 or so. I would hold a shield for his back kick and he would hit it quite hard and push me back 2 or 3 steps also. I felt the kick and it hurt. Master Suh is 5'10" 140 pounds (155 when not competing), and when I hold for him I don't move at all but the impact is more cutting and hurts so much more. He once hit me so hard (holding a shield) that my teeth rattled and I tasted metal, not to mention that I just doubled over out of air. No one I have ever held for has hit as hard.

There are some top level competitors that everyone knows that can testify of how hard he hits. It is all speed, proper technique, timing, and accuracy.

That's the so-called 'trembling shock effect' most of us train for with our strikes. Believe it or not I think smaller guys find it easier to produce than a hulking behemoth because of the velocity factor. Bigger guys just find it harder to produce the same level of acceleration with their strikes, even though they can obviously hit like a ton of bricks with their mass and strength.

 

[ATC]

...the velocity factor...

That's the key with spinning or jumping kicks, you increase the velocity therefore increasing the power. Your mass is constant weather jumping or standing so the only thing you can do it to increase your speed. Jumping helps this.

Note the video below. The TKD guy (Bren) is lifted off the ground when he strikes the target, he is not grounded.

I only use the video to show how the TKD guy choose to demonstrate the kick to generate the most power possible from it. Not to compare any styles kicking.

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[dancingalone]

That's the key with spinning or jumping kicks, you increase the velocity therefore increasing the power. Your mass is constant weather jumping or standing so the only thing you can do it to increase your speed. Jumping helps this.

Note the video below. The TKD guy (Bren) is lifted off the ground when he strikes the target, he is not grounded.

That's an interesting video, ATC. I don't think it really supports your argument however. Foster lifts off the ground as a RESULT of the torque from his kick, not because he elected to jump up and spin into say what I would normally call a 'jump 180 round house kick'.

As for jumping increasing the velocity of a kick, I would argue that humans are not rockets. Leaving our feet SLOWS us down, not the opposite. I contend that the speed of delivery of a step through side kick is faster than that of a jumping side kick. Jumping MIGHT allow more delivery of total body mass into the kick than a step through side kick does, but it loses out on the other important factors I have mentioned above like targeting and grounding/bracing.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What are you comparing the level of power of your kick to? You might be disappointed if you expect a jumping spinning roundhouse kick to be as powerful as a normal, grounded roundhouse kick.

My jump spinning roundhouse is considerably more poweful than my normal grounded one. Surely the laws of physics would say that the momentum built by the spin could only add power to the kick. Either that or my grounded roundhouse is really poor My spinning hook kick is also a lot more powerful than my grounded hook kick, I know this by how much timber I can break with each one.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I don't practice jump spin kicks. Totally worthless in a SD scenario.

 

[ATC]

That's an interesting video, ATC. I don't think it really supports your argument however. Foster lifts off the ground as a RESULT of the torque from his kick, not because he elected to jump up and spin into say what I would normally call a 'jump 180 round house kick'.

He is still in the air as the kick is being delivered. The fact that he allows his entire body mass to smash into the target before touching down and diverting all the energy into the target. As long as you are grounded there is still some energy left in the supporting leg.

Watch the Maui Thai guys kick. it is grounded and his foot slides along the ground ever so slightly. There is energy that is not transfered into the kick.

As for jumping increasing the velocity of a kick, I would argue that humans are not rockets. Leaving our feet SLOWS us down, not the opposite. I contend that the speed of delivery of a step through side kick is faster than that of a jumping side kick. Jumping MIGHT allow more delivery of total body mass into the kick than a step through side kick does, but it loses out on the other important factors I have mentioned above like targeting and grounding/bracing.

No we are not rockets and gravity slows down everything. As does friction. However the kick is still using the energy force provided by the muscles. removing the pulling force by jumping and kicking while at zero gravity (actually negative gravity while still going up) you enhance the speed and actually do speed up. Plus with the pull of gravity at impact your force is also increased.

But science aside, logic would only dictate that if jumping or spinning did not increase power or speed then why do it.

Lets look at Olympic javelin throwers. They run then hop while throwing. I would have to ask why.

Olympic shot put tossers as well. They spin then hop and toss. There is added power and speed that is created with the spin and the hop.