Judging Forms at Tournaments

[CB Jones]

Are there any people here who have experience judging forms at open tournaments. What are things you look for to give the participants a high score?

Stances are strong

Techniques are crisp, clean, and powerful.

Transition from techniques and stances are smooth.

Balance is maintained throughout.

Eyes are focused on the spot they are striking at.

If you aren't familiar with the form...you are essentially judging each technique, stance, and transition individually for mistakes and totaling them up to get the score.

 

[Tez3]

However, In the martial arts that I am familiar with, you would not be judging the javelin thrower's weight lifting, as that is totally disconnected from throwing a javelin. In my arts you would judge the javelin thrower based on the smoothness of his run-up and wind-up, whether he has exhibited a smooth and effortless center twist to generate the proper torque, whether his javelin is properly gripped and thrown at the height of his power arc, and how much distance he has attained through his throw. You are trying to say that all of the aesthetics don't matter, and it only matters how far he throws the javelin. However, without the proper mechanics (aesthetics), the thrower will not achieve his maximum distance.

I think the problem is that it seems many katas for competitions now include gymnastics and it's these that are being judged as being part of kata. One doesn't just do a kick one does a flying kick then a back flip, that sort of thing. Rather than the javelin analogy I think it's more a somersault one, you are judging people on their martial arts ability and their kata by watching them do moves designed to look flashy and more like film stunts than good practical kata.

 

[pgsmith]

You say that if the aesthetic elements aren't in place the javelin thrower cannot maximise his range, so then surely range is all you need judge. By fixing the form to one ideal you limit potential for individual variation and development through the orthodox. Where if we consider the results and look for consistency in them we can find the best practice for the individual and know that it works. You have a living breathing art and not just a ritual pattern devoid of meaning.

You misunderstand the actual usage and role of kata within the Japanese arts. They are not meant to cause everyone to do things exactly the same, they are meant to teach your body how to properly respond. Since everyone's body is different, the exact movement of the kata will be a bit different also. However, a strike using your center is still a strike using your center, and someone using only their arms would be wrong. That's pretty easily identified.

I think the problem is that it seems many katas for competitions now include gymnastics and it's these that are being judged as being part of kata. One doesn't just do a kick one does a flying kick then a back flip, that sort of thing. Rather than the javelin analogy I think it's more a somersault one, you are judging people on their martial arts ability and their kata by watching them do moves designed to look flashy and more like film stunts than good practical kata.

Ah, I've seen videos of some of those. Very athletic and fancy, and probably requiring a lot of practice to memorize correctly. They are fancy dance moves probably more related to Dancing with Stars rather than MMA Fight Night. Reminds me of a story told by John Ray sensei, a high level practitioner of Japanese sword arts (MJER iaido). He said he had just returned to Texas after living in Japan for a number of years. He saw an advertisement for a local karate tournament with a weapons forms division. In Japan, iaido forms competitions are fairly common, so he thought he'd give it a go and meet some of the local martial artists at the same time. So he got up and did his three iaido kata when his number was called. All the other competitors had jumps and spins and twirls in theirs. He said the judges called him over afterward and thanked him for competing as they'd always wanted to see real iaido, but they had no idea what to make of it as that wasn't what their weapons forms were about. Needless to say he didn't win.

I can see why some folks would have issues with that. However, if they don't agree with that sort of showmanship (not my thing either!) then just avoid those types of tournaments. If their organization judges forms based on flash instead of substance, its time to either change organizations, or work to change their organization's outlook. You can't just condemn other people's thoughts on it, in my opinion, since it is apparent that many people must like it that way.

 

[CB Jones]

However, if they don't agree with that sort of showmanship (not my thing either!) then just avoid those types of tournaments.

Agree. We compete in open tournaments and organizations....but they are still traditional kata competitions and not the XMA or non traditional types.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Don't give points. Start with maximum score. Take away a point for each observed error. Note that 'a point' may be measured in whole numbers or or percentages of numbers, which you'll be told before the tournament starts. For example "This group of competitors will be graded from 3.50 to 4.00." Then you'd take off .1 for each error, something along those lines.

In a closed tournament, I am looking for errors in the kata based on what the parameters are for each kata - which I should be aware of as a yudansha. If it is an open tournament, it's more difficult, since the competitors may be performing a kata or form I am not familiar with. However, some things are commonly seen as errors, such as an excessive pause (usually accompanied by a panicked look) indicating the competitor has forgotten or is unsure what to do next, or not ending up facing the direction they started, or 'sloppy' movements (depending on belt level and age), and so on. Crispness, balance, speed (with clean moves), power, flow, confidence, these always tend to show through.

I was worried the first few times I was asked to judge, but soon realized that my scores were within fractions of the scores other judges were giving on the same competitor, so I was apparently seeing the same things they were. So it was all good.

Best of luck!

Trust me, judging kumite is tougher.

 

[CB Jones]

Don't give points. Start with maximum score. Take away a point for each observed error. Note that 'a point' may be measured in whole numbers or or percentages of numbers, which you'll be told before the tournament starts. For example "This group of competitors will be graded from 3.50 to 4.00." Then you'd take off .1 for each error, something along those lines.

In a closed tournament, I am looking for errors in the kata based on what the parameters are for each kata - which I should be aware of as a yudansha. If it is an open tournament, it's more difficult, since the competitors may be performing a kata or form I am not familiar with. However, some things are commonly seen as errors, such as an excessive pause (usually accompanied by a panicked look) indicating the competitor has forgotten or is unsure what to do next, or not ending up facing the direction they started, or 'sloppy' movements (depending on belt level and age), and so on. Crispness, balance, speed (with clean moves), power, flow, confidence, these always tend to show through.

I was worried the first few times I was asked to judge, but soon realized that my scores were within fractions of the scores other judges were giving on the same competitor, so I was apparently seeing the same things they were. So it was all good.

Best of luck!

Trust me, judging kumite is tougher.

Great explanation

 

[DaveB]

You can't judge form or technique without an opponent?

Thats absurd.

I didn't say that, I said they are meaningless without an opponent.

Form for forms sake is dance. Show me correct form when you are being attacked, that would impress me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I didn't say that, I said they are meaningless without an opponent.

Form for forms sake is dance. Show me correct form when you are being attacked, that would impress me.

Pretty much every MA I've seen at times pays attention to form absent an opponent. Let's use boxing as an example: work on the heavy bag, head movement work with a static line (and later without it), shadowboxing. When doing those things, an experienced boxing coach (and most experienced boxers) can tell quite a bit about the individual's movement. That gets combined with using that movement against an opponent. Forms do not inherently divorce the two - they are simply one side of the pair.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I didn't say that, I said they are meaningless without an opponent.

Form for forms sake is dance. Show me correct form when you are being attacked, that would impress me.

OK, so that's a valid, but subjective, opinion.

Consider that there are tournaments and people compete in them. Regardless of your opinion of forms or kata, these competitions exist. If asked to judge in one, and one agrees to do so, one typically tries to overlook the vast meaninglessness of it all and follow the norms of judging such things.

 

[DaveB]

Pretty much every MA I've seen at times pays attention to form absent an opponent. Let's use boxing as an example: work on the heavy bag, head movement work with a static line (and later without it), shadowboxing. When doing those things, an experienced boxing coach (and most experienced boxers) can tell quite a bit about the individual's movement. That gets combined with using that movement against an opponent. Forms do not inherently divorce the two - they are simply one side of the pair.

But that's exactly my point.

Forms are a training tool. They exist to help us develop into capable martial artists. They are not to be judged just as you don't win a boxing match by shadow boxing.

It's this wooly b.s. that enables so much of what dropbear and Martial D would call fantasy martial arts. Instead of adopting a simple direct understanding of hit or be hit fighting and self defence the arts are cluttered with baggage like this. Perfection of form as an end in it's self; martial arts as character building; mastery requiring 30 years of study... all of these things are fabricated romanticism unrelated to any but the most modern arts (that I'm aware of- I'm sure someone will correct me). All just ways of people saving embarrassment from getting beaten up. And rather than challenging those people to live up to the perfection of character rhetoric; to take their beating and use it as fuel for improvement, we allow the proliferation of myth and magic and interpretive dance

Kata competition is the sickness in the soul of karate that corrupts the very nature of the art. We must cut it out and burn the very memory of it!

 

[CB Jones]

Kata competition is the sickness in the soul of karate that corrupts the very nature of the art. We must cut it out and burn the very memory of it!

That is your opinion and while you are entitled to your opinion in the end it is still just your opinion.

So we can agree to move on.

 

[Tez3]

Kata competition is the sickness in the soul of karate that corrupts the very nature of the art. We must cut it out and burn the very memory of it!

I don't agree with that but I would like kata to be proper kata with no added tricks, bells or whistles. I would like the kata to be recognisable and not something done to look like film choreography, though perhaps a class for a scripted fight might make a good competition!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kata competition is the sickness in the soul of karate that corrupts the very nature of the art. We must cut it out and burn the very memory of it!

I have always hated people who associate MA training with "health". May be I have changed. When you get older, you no longer spar/wrestle, what will you do all day?

I used to believe what you believe. I have learned a lot of forms. I was also strongly against form training. I believe form is for teaching/learning but not for training. I even mentioned this to my long fist teacher and made him mad at me big time. My long fist teacher just passed his 91 years birthday this year, May be his good health came from his life long form training.

You can maintain your health by

1. running,
2. weight lifting,
3. MA drill combo (or form) such as right side kick, left back kick, right roundhouse kick, right hammer fist, left straight punch.

IMO, 3 > 1 or 2

When you drill 3, you can maintain your

- balance,
- flexibility,
- body coordination,
- endurance (if you repeat it N times non-stop),

that both running and weight lifting won't be able to give you.

 

[Headhunter]

I don't agree with that but I would like kata to be proper kata with no added tricks, bells or whistles. I would like the kata to be recognisable and not something done to look like film choreography, though perhaps a class for a scripted fight might make a good competition!

I remember years ago on britains got talent there was this girl who said she's a karate champion and did a display but it was literally nothing but cartwheels and the odd kick. I remember thinking at the end nice gymnastics but where was the karate

 

[Headhunter]

One day when you are 70 years old, your opinion on this may change.

I used to believe what you believe. I have learned a lot of forms. I was also strongly against form training. I believe form is for teaching/learning but not for training. I even mentioned this to my long fist teacher and made him mad at me big time. My long fist teacher just passed his 91 years birthday this year, May be his good health came from his life long form training.

You can maintain your health by

1. running,
2. weight lifting,
3. MA drill combo (or form) such as right side kick, left back kick, right roundhouse kick, right hammer fist, left straight punch.

IMO, 3 > 1 or 2

When you drill 3, you can maintain your

- balance,
- flexibility,
- body coordination,
- endurance (if you repeat it N times non-stop),

that both running and weight lifting won't be able to give you.

Kata is fine but the competitions make people turn their kata into ridiculous movements that break every rule of their martial art

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kata is fine but the competitions make people turn their kata into ridiculous movements that break every rule of their martial art

Agree! In CMA, there are 3 ways to drill your form:

1. fighting - punch out fast, pull back fast.
2. health - punch out slow, pull back fast (or slow).
3. performance - punch out fast, freeze your arm in the thin air, pull back fast.

If you fight as your perform (or the other way around) then you are wrong.

 

[CB Jones]

Kata is fine but the competitions make people turn their kata into ridiculous movements that break every rule of their martial art

But not all competitions and competitors do this.

There are org that frown on "XMA / Non-Traditional" type katas and weapon forms.

It isn't the competition aspect of it to blame....it's the organization or Dojo fault.

 

[Headhunter]

But not all competitions and competitors do this.

There are org that frown on "XMA / Non-Traditional" type katas and weapon forms.

It isn't the competition aspect of it to blame....it's the organization or Dojo fault.

And that just causes more confusion. People who enter competitions will see some places wanting really low stances and some wanting really high stances and that'll just mess up their training because they won't be training their form consistently. I believe karate competitions are a waste of time because the competitions strip away what the style is teaching. Karate was made for self defence so it includes groin shots, knees elbows, eye gouges, throat strikes but then all those are illegal moves in competitions so you spend years training the student to do those moves then tell them they can't use them if they want to win a trophy.

Point fighting and kata tournaments have given karate such a bad name. People think that all karate people do is tap fighting because that's all that's seen in competition, they think the forms are stupid gymnastics and over the top movements because that's what's seen in tournaments. If katate wants to be taken seriously again I believe it should seriously update it's Tournament rules and get rid of the rubbish it is today or stop them completely.

 

[DaveB]

But not all competitions and competitors do this.

There are org that frown on "XMA / Non-Traditional" type katas and weapon forms.

It isn't the competition aspect of it to blame....it's the organization or Dojo fault.

I think XMA, though annoying, bother me less than traditional org kata comps. They (XMA and the like) are a gymnastic dance and they know it. They are being true to themselves.

Within karate at least kata became an end rather than a means.
Then a whole mythos was created to justify all the time and energy spent doing something that does not aid your ability to defend yourself. That self delusion bugs me more than people who want to dance like Bruce Lee on crack.

 

[CB Jones]

Headhunter,

You are entitled to your opinion.


For the most part, I don't understand why some people worry so much about what other people are doing.

If you aren't into competition that's fine but why the need to disparage people who do.

You don't like the formats of the competitions don't go to them or start your own organization and do it how you feel it should be.