Joe Rogan's TKD comment

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jay:

".....So that's why I think TKD sparrers really wouldn't or don't fare well in MMA style tournaments. They are probably usually not used to having to fight someone who will come in and grab and they are not used to having to kick someone hard enough to keep them away. This is not a problem with TKD so much as just a reflection that people that train heavily for sparring train for certain tactics, and against opponents who don't use those tactics, it's very difficult....."

My guess is that your post goes a long way to explain some of the "boring" material in some forms. True enough that people would like to see some sort of exotic and highly-contrived material. And I think folks get turned-off when they see so much of the same "block-punch-kick" combinations. The fact is though, when a person is in a real fight its usually the basic "bread-and-butter" techniques, not some fancy stuff that ends the fight. Now I don't discount the training in the fancy stuff because it means that the basics get done that much better. Still, when Motobu was fighting in Okinawa the rumor was that his opponents all fell forward since he was hitting them so hard that they simply were stopped dead in their tracks. This wasn't exotic Dim Mak stuff; the guy could just really swat!! The same was said of Rocky Marciano who was rumored to be able to break a 4X4 with a mid-section punch. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[FearlessFreep]

Can you smack them as hard as you want or what? I've never really watched it, so I don't know.

Not much here either. I'm just thinking that smacking hard enough to score in TKD is not the same as smacking hard enough to stop an opponent rushing in Not that TKD doesn't have the techniques to handle something like that, but I think it's possible that someone who trains to score in TKD would not really be in the mindset to smack someone hard enough to really stop them

 

[nekoTKD]

Yeah I agree completely. If I was in sparring mode, I really wouldn't be ready to take someone on in a real fight. Of course that's why we train in selfdefense and real life situations. Im pretty confident that I could stop an attacker if needed. Hope I never have to though.

Thanks,
Brandon

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Yes, but it hasn't survived since. It's been forced to evolve and fill in gaps just like any other single focus system has had to.

Right...which is what I indicated. That ONE art, and its promoters, changed the focus of training for a great many people and got the ball rolling. In doing so it earned its place in history. The game itself quickly evolved to where BJJ lost its growing mystique (and a clown named Sakuraba had a lot to do with that, too)...but not so much that it hasn't retained respect from many corners of the MMA community.

Back to TKD.

TKD's evolution in the last thirty years (and believe me, it has evolved) has removed it from a path where its techniques could be used on an MMA battlefield. Its kicking methods are high maintenance. The amount of time it takes to maintain them detracts from other training needed for the MMA ring.

I would love nothing better than to see an accomplished TKD competitor take some of that footwork and (some of the ) kicking and apply it to MMA. I honestly think it would have a chance of success PROVIDED he learned to clinch, execute fundamentals of takedowns and ground work, and got some skill in boxing or comparable hand skills.

TKD's kicking skills...and to a lesser degree its footwork...have allready bled over into other fighting sports. It hasn't been given much credit for this, but credit isn't necessarily the goal in cross pollination of this sort. When we see a classic wrestling technique used in an MMA event we don't slaughter a lamb and sacrifice it on the altar of wrestling in order to thank the Gods of Grappling...we merely use it if it suits us. So too with kicks and footwork.

If we see such a transition it will be slow in coming. TKD competitors are rare to cross boundary lines (as we've debated in another thread on sharing arts). This reluctance is seen in open tournament sport karate as well...the kids with the flashy uniforms and pretty kicks so much maligned here on MT will not--if given the choice--get on the mat and grapple someone or readily enter into a full contact match.

In thirty years I have yet to encounter an art where this reticence isn't found, even among those arts purporting to be "progressive."

We do what we're comfortable with...what we've trained the most. Once we've attained a measure of skill it is difficult to put the ego aside and enter into an arena where we are once again a beginner. There is a great deal of risk. It is not so much a risk to the body as it is a risk to pride.



Regards,


Steve

 

[FearlessFreep]

One also possible reason for reluctance to adapt in new approaches is simply philosophy. TKD, for example, is not a set list of techniques. It's a philosophy about fighting and power and force and body movement; the techniques are merely the natural result of that philosophy. To incorporate new approaches would be a distraction from implementing that philosophy and powerfully and efficiently as possible. TKD in particular is about hard linear strikes to particulr body parts to stop the opponent with injury or breaking something. Body movement, everything from hip twist to pivot foot rotation to body spin, is based on increasing the speed and therefore power of the strike. Grappling really doesn't fall naturally along this line of study so there's a natural resistance not because it's though 'wrong' but probably just because it's thought distracting from the focus.

Because, in one sense, if you feel the need to introduce grappling, then I would think that means that you probably failed with the striking, I mean, if the guy can get close enough to put his arms around you, then you didn't kick him hard enough before he got that close. Maybe you spent too much time training for sparring and didn't learn to strike hard enough, maybe you spent time learning chokes and holds rather than using the time to perfect your technique to get more power. If you can get the power to break several boards, though, you have the power to break limbs and the guy should be down before you need to turn to your grappling techniques.

Because of the emphasis on point sparring, though, I don't think many people coming up really train in TKD in this manner, and then when they get into MMA competitions they can't really stand up well; so it's seen that TKD needs to borrow other techniques to really get the job done. That may or may not be true, but I think it's probably less true than is common wisdom, if the focus on training were to switch from 'hit the hogu to get a poin' to 'hit the floating ribs to break them'

Just playing devil's advocate here

 

[Adept]

Not to hijack the thread or anything, but what exactly is allowed in UFC? Can you smack them as hard as you want or what? I've never really watched it, so I don't know.

Thanks,
Brandon

It's essentially boxing without as many restrictions. Yes, you can smack the other guy as hard as you want. You can spear tackle his legs, throw him to the ground, and then smash him in the face until he either passes out or the ref stops the fight.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

It's essentially boxing without as many restrictions. Yes, you can smack the other guy as hard as you want. You can spear tackle his legs, throw him to the ground, and then smash him in the face until he either passes out or the ref stops the fight.

As well as choke him or lock a joint until he submits. You can also kick him and knee him while he's standing. You can suplex him and drop him on his head, too, I believe.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Kumbajah]

From the UFC Website

Fouls:


1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Ways To Win:


1. Submission by:
? Physical tap out.
? Verbal tap out.
? Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
? Unanimous decision.
? Split decision.
? Majority decision.
? Draw, including:
? Unanimous draw.
? Majority draw.
? Split draw.
4. Technical decision.
5. Technical draw.
6. Disqualification.
7. Forfeit.
8. No contest.

 

[bignick]

the eliminated all the fun stuff

 

[nekoTKD]

Thanks for the replies, that sounds like it could get quite violent.

 

[Digger70chall]

i haven't watched it recently, since probably 10 or so. They are way up in numbers now...it looks like they changed a ton of it, probably to protect their contract fighters...i feel like it has more of a WWE feel to it now. It doesn't seem as raw as it used to.

 

[MJS]

i haven't watched it recently, since probably 10 or so. They are way up in numbers now...it looks like they changed a ton of it, probably to protect their contract fighters...i feel like it has more of a WWE feel to it now. It doesn't seem as raw as it used to.

Yes, you're correct. If you look at the list that was posted above..(Thanks Kubajah) there are a few things such as kicking/kneeing/stomping the downed opp. that were allowed in the first few events, but are no longer allowed. There was a short time when the UFC was removed from PPV due partly to politicians. Since its return, there are more rules, as seen above, sanctioning with athletic comm., etc. Alot of it also has to do with fighter safety.

As for the WWE feel..lol...yeah, I noticed that too in the last few events. People coming out in costumes, the post fight antics/challenges, etc.

Its all good though. I'm looking forward to the next one!!

Mike

 

[WilliamJ]

i haven't watched it recently, since probably 10 or so. They are way up in numbers now...it looks like they changed a ton of it, probably to protect their contract fighters...i feel like it has more of a WWE feel to it now. It doesn't seem as raw as it used to.

They added alot of the rules to get sanctioning and get out of legal troubles. When the current owners took over they were having trouble even staying on pay per view.

 

[Digger70chall]

Well even with the new rules it's still entertaining. sorta off topic but does anyone know a place to get some WTF TKD tourny videos? either VCR,DVD or online. I have only seen still pictures so far but their kicks look amazing and i would like to see it in motion alrighty back on topic.

 

[Kumbajah]

Not sparring but def worth a watch -

http://http.dvlabs.com/adcritic/a/d/i/adidas-tae-kwan-do.mov

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Fouls:


1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.


Hmmm. I guess it's safe to say THESE are effective techniques.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Digger70chall]

Not sparring but def worth a watch -

http://http.dvlabs.com/adcritic/a/d/i/adidas-tae-kwan-do.mov

thanks that was pretty funny